Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,423
Garage
930 Headers: T304 vs 321 Preference

We have produced several sets of 930 headers now and I am evaluating pricing.
The price point that I wish to hold is a couple dollars more than the popular short tube headers currently on the market. My headers offer many advantages that increase cost and justify the sale price.

My question to you as enthusiasts is how much does weight vs materials matter?

We currently use 321 stainless as it has properties that work well in the turbo environment. T304 stainless is the industry standard but does not hold up as well to the heat and stress given the same wall thickness. You can compensate for this difference by increasing the wall thickness in the T304 which also increases weight.

It will be difficult to retain current pricing using light weight thin wall 321. What are your views given the choice of a heavier product (currently 15 pounds) or a more expensive (couple hundred dollars) product?


__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2009, 09:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: scotland
Posts: 248
Personally if the longevity where to remain the same i reckon the cheaper option with only a little extra added weight would be my preference...

I would reckon it would still be far lighter than the original set up anyway,, can you confirm its weight versus standard euro system?
__________________
SP Autobahn www.spautobahn.co.uk
Porsche inspector for Peter Morgan UK
http://www.porscheinspections.com/
"92" 964 turbo,Modified and recently rebuilt using all ARP hardware..
Purpose built fuel controller set up to acheive perfect fuel curve on CIS inj.
Old 11-19-2009, 09:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sprbxr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dogtown...RVA
Posts: 787
Send a message via Yahoo to sprbxr
Brian
Would you sell the headers only from flange to collector?
__________________
Justin
Old 11-19-2009, 09:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
We have produced several sets of 930 headers now and I am evaluating pricing.
The price point that I wish to hold is a couple dollars more than the popular short tube headers currently on the market. My headers offer many advantages that increase cost and justify the sale price.

My question to you as enthusiasts is how much does weight vs materials matter?

We currently use 321 stainless as it has properties that work well in the turbo environment. T304 stainless is the industry standard but does not hold up as well to the heat and stress given the same wall thickness. You can compensate for this difference by increasing the wall thickness in the T304 which also increases weight.

It will be difficult to retain current pricing using light weight thin wall 321. What are your views given the choice of a heavier product (currently 15 pounds) or a more expensive (couple hundred dollars) product?


How much lighter would the 321 be?

I assume offering both is not practical?
Old 11-19-2009, 09:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Treasure Island Fl
Posts: 53
Make mine lightweight please. 15 pounds in the extreme back of the car is undesirable track wise. Drane
__________________
However much you think it will cost; double that and you will be close
Old 11-19-2009, 09:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
jsveb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Norseman territory
Posts: 2,759
Garage
I would definitely chose the 321 version. With this kind of craftmanship, why would I go cheap on the materials used. Weight is definitely just making the choice even easier.

I'll hopefully get back to You and Ben in about a year or so ;-)

Regards

Jesper
Old 11-19-2009, 10:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,423
Garage
Quote:
With this kind of craftmanship, why would I go cheap on the materials used.
That is my thought but I am not the consumer. It's challenging to get a good read on what the client values in our current economical climate.

The weight difference between my system and stock is HUGE. The stock heat exchangers and muffler weigh in at over 100 pounds. My headers and muffler, both on 321, weigh 27 pounds. Dump the stock waste gate for a TiAL and you save over 75 pounds!
The difference in weight between thin wall 321 and thick wall T304 is ~22% so you are not talking a huge penalty in weight. Maybe 4 pounds.

Justin - shoot me an e-mail on what you are wanting to do.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2009, 10:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Drive it like u stole it.
 
jonesb930's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jupiter, FL
Posts: 528
Garage
Brian,

Personally, I would not consider 304 headers on a turbo. You have built a great reputation with the product using 321 and doing it the right way, why change things now? The current design is proven and worth the additional cost. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill
__________________
____________________________
Bill Jones
Jupiter, FL
77 Euro 911 3.0 Wide Body - under construction
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rennsport/collections/72157618856489537/
Old 11-19-2009, 10:35 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hesperia, Ca.
Posts: 156
Garage
Hands down...321.
__________________
Scott - 1987 930: 3.45L Supertec engine w/GT3 crank, California Motor Sports upgraded 930 trans, modified suspension, Zuffenhaus 9's and 11's, black on black..."The Black (Financial) Hole"
Old 11-19-2009, 10:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Slantnose Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Southeast Minnesota
Posts: 143
Garage
Iwould prefer 321, Brian.
_____________________
1989 930S Factory Slant
Old 11-19-2009, 11:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,423
Garage
I'm glad to see support for 321 as it is a more appropriate material for the application. Realize I had to ask this question as ultimately it doesn't matter what I think is best but rather what the clients value. I'd make everything out of inconel and titanium if I could!
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2009, 12:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
full quack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 1,134
Send a message via Yahoo to full quack
Hello Brian,
If my ship ever comes in, so that I can do the fullbay, k27,cams, 3.2 manifold efi, header combo shuffle.
I would really prefer 321 stainless (with heat) headers, just becauce it is the right way to do it.
Mark
Old 11-19-2009, 12:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: scotland
Posts: 248
Now i have re-read the original post it appears thicker wall 304 will only compensate for a problem and not give the same longevity....

So in that case,,defo 321 would be the option to choose!!
__________________
SP Autobahn www.spautobahn.co.uk
Porsche inspector for Peter Morgan UK
http://www.porscheinspections.com/
"92" 964 turbo,Modified and recently rebuilt using all ARP hardware..
Purpose built fuel controller set up to acheive perfect fuel curve on CIS inj.
Old 11-19-2009, 01:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Driver
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 13,633
Garage
321. If you're going to do it, do it right. There are plenty of other so-so products out there.
__________________
1987 Venetian Blue (really looks like grey) 930 Coupe
Old 11-19-2009, 02:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Turbo Hooligan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Greensboro NC
Posts: 1,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah930 View Post
321. If you're going to do it, do it right. There are plenty of other so-so products out there.
awww, why not inconel? industry standard in aircraft...

and $$$$$$$

let me go pick some more money off the trees in the back yard, lol.


btw, I'm waiting on my 304 GHL's to crack. they've been in hard use since 2001.
__________________
www.d-zug.com
blog.d-zug.com

All these guys do is drive too fast, work on cars, chase ******* and drink.. really no fun at all...
Old 11-19-2009, 03:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah930 View Post
321. If you're going to do it, do it right. There are plenty of other so-so products out there.
My thoughts exactly!
__________________
1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 11-19-2009, 03:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
MikeD930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: missouri
Posts: 1,542
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drane View Post
Make mine lightweight please. 15 pounds in the extreme back of the car is undesirable track wise. Drane
Do you have bumperettes on your 930? If so then those weigh 15 lbs at the very rear!

If I'm in the market for the headers I'd be interested in longitivity so 321 would be preferred.
__________________
MikeD
'87 930
Old 11-19-2009, 04:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
Posts: 1,211
Key question for me is, what is the price?

I too have 304 stainless in my custom headers and have yet to have a problem nearly 7 years later. I haven't weighed them though but I am not interested in a 5 pound difference for street/DE headers.

And as for weight, you state 15 pounds for the heavier headers, but how much lighter are you talking about? 2 pounds? 5 pounds? No one on this list would be able to tell the difference.

Be careful using this to decide your pricing. I want the best stuff at the cheapest material's price. But why not offer both (or multiple) materials and we get to choose based on our own criteria? How long would it take to build an order? A couple weeks? I could live with that knowing they are built to my specs.
Old 11-19-2009, 05:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
BoxxerSix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ballston Spa, NY
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
Key question for me is, what is the price?

I too have 304 stainless in my custom headers and have yet to have a problem nearly 7 years later. I haven't weighed them though but I am not interested in a 5 pound difference for street/DE headers.

And as for weight, you state 15 pounds for the heavier headers, but how much lighter are you talking about? 2 pounds? 5 pounds? No one on this list would be able to tell the difference.

Be careful using this to decide your pricing. I want the best stuff at the cheapest material's price. But why not offer both (or multiple) materials and we get to choose based on our own criteria? How long would it take to build an order? A couple weeks? I could live with that knowing they are built to my specs.

+1. Offer the option for 321, keep a few 304's in stock ready to ship. If a customer prefers 321, just note a lead time of a couple weeks prior to sale for fab time.

This is what I do for my stuff and it works well. I keep nothing prefabbed in 625, but retain the option and build per request.
__________________
Adam Hennessy
Old 11-19-2009, 07:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,423
Garage
The price would skyrocket if I did it that way. Pricing can only be controlled through volume. I have to make a large run which is huge money so no mix and match. My preference is to stay with 321, I need to know that it is also your preference.

There are plenty of 304 systems that have not cracked, but there are lots that have. That number needs to be minimized.

As stated above the 321 headers weigh 15 pounds. T304 would probably weigh ~20 pounds. Not a big difference but weight is only one factor. T304 doesn't have the same properties as 321. Price difference is a couple hundred bucks.

I think I have my answer and the 930 headers will stay 321 as they should. Price may go up a bit but the value remains.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-19-2009, 08:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:12 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.