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John,

Outstanding contribution!

I get the LDA in concept. Do you know of the NA pumps have what is needed in them to accept LDA?

I wonder what the fuel limit of the Porsche MFI pumps might be?

Dose anyone know a pump builder that can build a turbo pump?

Some 10-15 years ago I talked to one on the east coast (USA) that said he could.


Fun!
Old 01-12-2010, 05:16 PM
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Pic of a 934.5

Thx again Flieger
Old 01-12-2010, 05:21 PM
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Rack movement vs fuel delivery - this is from test plan data for the normally aspirated R3, R3Y & R3Z pumps with 6mm plunger.

Assuming you need to get to 65cc/500 strokes (this figure was posted by Bernie Buschen on his 935 pbase gallery) = 130cc/1000 strokes, you'd probable need to look at a 7mm piston (1.36 times the area of the 6mm piston) to not "overextend" the rack.

You can tell plunger size externally from the ID plate on the pump

PED6KL60... = 6.0mm
PED6KL70... = 7.0mm
PED6KL75... = 7.5mm

You can see from Max's photo that it is very difficult to read the ID plate as its located on the inboard side of the pump next to the inlet manifold.

I believe that Gus Pfister at Pacific Fuel Injection supported many turbo pumps over the years.

I think lightened flyweights and different control springs also help extend the speed range of the space cam, but just speculation on my part.

Further, I've heard that these egines were "fuel cooled" (very rich)

Last edited by jcge; 01-12-2010 at 05:47 PM..
Old 01-12-2010, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Dose anyone know a pump builder that can build a turbo pump?
Fun!
I've contacted a Pelican MFI pump builder and he is interesting in taking on the project.
I'm still searching for my base engine, a 2.4T MFI for longhood install. I'm afraid my project will not apply to the vast majority of the 930 based turbo motor guys on this site.
Old 01-12-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jcge View Post

I think lightened flyweights and different control springs also help extend the speed range of the space cam, but just speculation on my part.

Lighter weights, stronger springs, or tightening the springs slows the rate the sensing stylist moves across the space cam side to side.

If the operating range of a motor is say 6800 rpm with TQ peak at say 4500rpm the weights are heavy and or the effective spring rate light so the space cam can move to the end of its rpm range by 6800rpm.

If the operating range is 8000rpm, the weights are lighter and the effective spring rate higher so the space cam moves along its range slower.

No amount of change in springs or weights will expand the range of TQ levels it will support. That is done by how deep the space cam is carved. (Or by adding larger plungers.)

Stock MFI pumps can be adjusted with the existing weights and springs for up to around 7300 rpm or so.

The stylist reaches the lowest part of the space cam at TQ peak which is where it supplies the most fuel per stroke.

Move where the TQ peak is going to be and the advancement rate will probably need to be adjusted.

Thus, if one uses a T pump and TQ peak unboosted is close to stock the stock space cam and settings should remaing the same.

The LDA would add the extra fuel that is needed in support of the increase in VE that comes with boost. Off boost drive-ability would remain as stock.

In some ways it will be easier to get the MFI pump to work well and maintain part throttle drive-ability on a motor with stock cam & displacement that is turbocharged, assuming the addition of an LDA, than it would be if the motor was to remain normally aspirated and see a bump in displacement as that would increases gross total TQ expected and require a different space cam.
Old 01-12-2010, 08:08 PM
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Woulod something like this be a good start? DOUGLAS VALLEY BREAKERS LTD : 1972 porsche 911e mechanical injection
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcge View Post


Rack movement vs fuel delivery - this is from test plan data for the normally aspirated R3, R3Y & R3Z pumps with 6mm plunger.

Assuming you need to get to 65cc/500 strokes (this figure was posted by Bernie Buschen on his 935 pbase gallery) = 130cc/1000 strokes, you'd probable need to look at a 7mm piston (1.36 times the area of the 6mm piston) to not "overextend" the rack.

You can tell plunger size externally from the ID plate on the pump

PED6KL60... = 6.0mm
PED6KL70... = 7.0mm
PED6KL75... = 7.5mm...

Changing the pistons is a new concept for me and very interesting.

I have taken an MFI pump apart maybe 30 or more times to grind on the space cam for a 2.8 I built.

If a stock MFI pump dose use a 6mm and we move up to a 7mm it might be a good start for a 930 motor.

For example. If we start with a 2.4 pump, increase the piston 1.36 times this sould support a 3.26 which is very close to our 930 motors in displacement.

My thinking is we might be able to use the existing space cams to maintain drive ability.

I think a T pump should support a flatter TQ curve and might fit our purpose. One might be able to use the T, E, or S pump by playing with the spring tensions.

I had a 2.4T, S, and RS cam. The S cam looked very peaky. That is there was not much increase in fuel until the higher RPM. The RS was between the two except it was carved deeper for more fuel.

I found I could tune my space cam a bit by marking it with a felt tip pin, driving the motor in the rpm range I wanted to effect and pull the pump down to see where the stylist road on the space cam. Then grind that area for more fuel.
Old 01-13-2010, 06:54 AM
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I still have a lot to learn about MFI.

I think I have the Porsche Bosch unit down reasonably well.

Porsche MFI pumps primarily just use a space cam which basically is imprinted with the fuel delivery programing.

Being a reference system. If any thing varies from expectation, the AFR will suffer.

That is at 5000rpm and 100% throttle it is going to send an amount of fuel as predetermened by the programing carved into the space cam.


The LDA can add boost enrichment to our space cam or reference style MFI. This adds a boost sensing capability.

One could build a turbo with out an LDA but it would not compensate for different levels of boost and at a given RPM and percentage of throttle will deliver a predetermined amount of fuel.

The LDA also looks like it can add a level of pressure sensing at other times (think MAP).

Thus, it could if set up to do so, adjust for load from cruse to on boost. This might even eliminate or reduce the need for a space cam as changes in vacuum and boost change fuel quantities delivered could be made by the LDA.

For example, non turbo diesel MBZ pumps still have an LDA.

I suspect other non Porsche MFI injection pumps might depend on the LDA to adjust for differences in load and not use any space cam or a very simplified space cam.

New stuff and kind of cool.
Old 01-13-2010, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I still have a lot to learn about MFI.

I think I have the Porsche Bosch unit down reasonably well.
Bringing the discussion back, we know Bosch produced an MFI pump adapted with boost enrichment and it was adapted to a street turbocharged application. This was the BMW 2002Tii Turbo. I posted an inquiry in the Pelican BMW section regarding this but got no response.

It should be just a matter of getting back to some old guy familiar with the modifications on that pump. You are in the center of this knowledge base can you check around the performance BMW guys in CA?
Old 01-13-2010, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
Bringing the discussion back, we know Bosch produced an MFI pump adapted with boost enrichment and it was adapted to a street turbocharged application. This was the BMW 2002Tii Turbo. I posted an inquiry in the Pelican BMW section regarding this but got no response.

It should be just a matter of getting back to some old guy familiar with the modifications on that pump. You are in the center of this knowledge base can you check around the performance BMW guys in CA?
AFAIK the 2002 used a Kugelfischer pump.



I have plans to build a MFI turbo engine. I occasionally have access to a 935 with the Bosch system. My plans are to disassemble the LDA for a quick reverse engineering and modeling in cad.


The guy back east that makes one is H&R out of New York I believe. I had a conversation with him about a year ago about the very subject. I did not request pics as I want to make one with reasonable historic appearance.
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:20 AM
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copbait73,

Good thought.


Aaron,

Way, way cool and sexy project.


I know EFI is easier , more efficient, and has less bad habits but this is a lot more fun.
Old 01-13-2010, 09:30 AM
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LOL, whats EFI?

I've been collecting parts for the build for some time now. I have been looking for rod bearings for quite sometime now...
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:05 AM
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AFAIK the 2002 used a Kugelfischer pump.
Thank you Aaron.

At least we know the project still exists to adapt/modify a Bosch to make things affordable.
Old 01-13-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
Thank you Aaron.

At least we know the project still exists to adapt/modify a Bosch to make things affordable.
Well available at least, I did not get a quote from Hans:


H & R Fuel Injection Ltd
360 Knickerbocker Ave # 12
Bohemia, NY 11716-3124
Phone: (631) 589-1600

He can possibly give you a general price estimate over the phone for the LDA and the tuning costs for such an application. He has a bit of history with things 935 IIRC.
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:27 AM
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Aaron - I'd greatly appreciate if you could confirm pump and regulator numbers from the 935.....


Note: Space cam markings for the road cars = last 2 digits of the Bosch part number - I just haven't saved as a new jpeg file.

John
Old 01-13-2010, 12:06 PM
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Any of the early Mercedes 6 cylinder cars with an "E" in the name like a 280SE would have a bosch mechanical injection pump too.
The E stood for einspritz and is German for fuel injection.

Maybe you could find one of those cheaper than one from a Porsche and do things to it too.

The big 6.3 liter V8 in the 280SEL 6.3 also had a very nice looking intake plenum with long runners, I think they were single throttle body but maybe 2 with one for each bank, and Bosch mechanical injection.

For the heck of it...
The 280SEL was for 2.8 liter motor, S for super class, E for einspritz, and L for long wheel base giving more leg room to the back seats.
When the 6.3 was at the end it was the fast flagship model with the big 6.3 liter V8

The BMW 2002 Tii, meant 2000cc motor, 2 doors, touring international injected and it had a kugelfischer mechanical injection pump and single throttle body.
Old 01-13-2010, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
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Aaron - I'd greatly appreciate if you could confirm pump and regulator numbers from the 935.....

Note: Space cam markings for the road cars = last 2 digits of the Bosch part number - I just haven't saved as a new jpeg file.

John
No problem.
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Old 01-13-2010, 02:46 PM
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A bit more info re MFI plunger sizes for turbo applications....

The 917/30 5.4L Turbo (1200hp) used 8mm plungers - that's roughly the equivalent of 2 x 600hp 2.7L 6 cylinder turbos....I don't know of any other PED or PES series pump that uses an 8mm piston.

There was a pump on ebay a while ago that purported to be from a 74 RSR Carrera 2.1L marked for 6mm pistons (but didn't look authentic to me - the LDA was significantly different to prior versions - billet not cast, and it used Spicer drive components - but I may be wrong)

John
Old 02-09-2010, 02:02 PM
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Anyone know if the air pump pulley or cam mount on a 930 is the same size as an MFI's?

Also, anyone have a feel for if we could can we mount the MFI pump on top of the pancake manifold and fit it behind/under a typical 930 intercooler?

Will the MFI injectors screw into the same mounts as the CIS injectors?

Just wondering.

Last edited by 911st; 02-09-2010 at 03:46 PM..
Old 02-09-2010, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Any of the early Mercedes 6 cylinder cars with an "E" in the name like a 280SE would have a bosch mechanical injection pump too.
The E stood for einspritz and is German for fuel injection.

Maybe you could find one of those cheaper than one from a Porsche and do things to it too.

The big 6.3 liter V8 in the 280SEL 6.3 also had a very nice looking intake plenum with long runners, I think they were single throttle body but maybe 2 with one for each bank, and Bosch mechanical injection.

For the heck of it...
The 280SEL was for 2.8 liter motor, S for super class, E for einspritz, and L for long wheel base giving more leg room to the back seats.
When the 6.3 was at the end it was the fast flagship model with the big 6.3 liter V8

The BMW 2002 Tii, meant 2000cc motor, 2 doors, touring international injected and it had a kugelfischer mechanical injection pump and single throttle body.
Ummm....Jim.....you're showing your Beemer roots again! The neat thing is that your knowledge is transferrable to our CIS Porsches.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:39 PM
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