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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Quote:
Do any of those turbos have a hot side larger than a 7200 or an option for a hot side larger than a 7200?
The K27 line was designed specifically for the 930 and 965 CIS engines. This narrows the range of power to 400whp or less typical. There are options for larger hot sides but this needs to be balanced with the cold side which makes a new turbo. The HF series is bigger than needed for most modified 930 engines as typical mods are just bolt-ons. Once you get past the 375WHP level the HF is needed. 500+WHP EFI engines use the K27HF-2, a whole new turbo.
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Old 01-03-2010, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Not having a map should not be to big of a deal.
In God we trust; everyone else better bring data. Especially in a world of inflated claims and inflated hp numbers.
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Old 01-03-2010, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post

... There are options for larger hot sides...

Thanks Brian,

What are the hot side options please?

Is there options to use larger exhaust wheels?

Is there different A/R housings available for a larger turbine wheel?

Can the 7006 or similar hot side be had with the HF line as an option?

(I had a 7006HF years ago but I supplied the core.)

Can you give more details please?

Thx.

Last edited by 911st; 01-04-2010 at 09:10 AM..
Old 01-03-2010, 06:26 PM
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911nut ,you don't think that map numbers cain't be inflated also? what do you want to see,,I am sure you can get someone to put it on paper for you
Old 01-03-2010, 07:00 PM
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The main difference between the 944 Turbo S and the 944T was a larger hot housing (#6 v #8).

The go to turbo for the 1992 C2 turbo S2 or 93 Turbo S was a turbo that mostly just had a larger hot wheel/housing (K27-7006 v 7200).

This makes for more high rpm HP but can be at the expense of low RPM response.
Old 01-03-2010, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stup View Post
You could also go on and say you could also find many a person with a failed KKK series.

"I still do not understand how you can reach 460 Flywheel HP with your very similar setup than mine"

Ha Ha......Some great head rework, a slight raise in compression,fuel flow matching cylinders and most important my friend Thierry.... "myself" doing the rebuild

p.s i have completed some 60-130 mph times if you would like to compare?
That's true that you can find people with a failed KKK series either ...

As to the power, I don't think the fuel flow matching bring any additional power. It can bring you safety. The rebuild was carefully made on mine ( everything was changed and I spent some time in the workshop to see the job quality ) ..... and I even paid recently for double checking the valve timing since I wanted to investigate about the torque drop beyound 5300 rpm.

So except the rise in compression ( how much did you put ? ) I don't see any reason to be such different. In the mean time, all the 965 T that I know in france which has been modified with 964 NA camshaft (these cams can provide higher HP than SC cams as we have on our car) provide about 420 Flywheel HP under 0.95 bar with K7200. So do you think your higher compression bring about 50 to 60 HP compare to my setup ? or don't you think that your dyno is a bit optimist ?

I think the 60 to 130 MPH time won't bring an exact answer since the gear shift can be different between 2 drivers. But if you have a datalogging of the time you spend to go from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in 3 rd gear .... it could be compared more accurately.

By the way, do you still have the stock wastegate cat exhaust or did you install a cat by pass on the wastegate exhaust ? Many thinks there is nothing to win except to get a nice "animal" sound. Normally the wastegate regulate the back pressure and there is no gain to get here.... that's I was thinking until now. But if we consider this problem in term of exhaust flaw, it is possible to think that the cata restriction reduce the total flow output under a given back pressure. Thus, it is maybe possible that with free flow exhaust on wastegate output, the back pressure remain the same as with cata restriction but the total flow is increased. What is your opinion Brian ??
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:29 AM
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I have been wondering why reducing back pressure in the exhaust makes a differance.

If a smaller turbine is used to get full boost by 3000rpm it might be possable to see the pressure in the exhaust manifold go to over 3 times the boost pressure so lets say 3.2 times.

If we put a larger turbine on it might be possible to reduce that pressure to near 2.5 times I suspect.

If this is true, that would be exhaust pressure at one bar boost of about 3.2 bar compared to 2.5 bar. That is about a 28% difference.

I do not know if these numbers are accurate but they are probably not out of range of possibilities. We might benefit from testing for exhaust manifold pressure.

This might mean that there could be some 25% less resident exhaust gasses remaining in the cylinder after the exhaust valve closes.

Thus leaving less room for fresh air & fuel with the intake cycle.

-----

I am wondering if a larger turbine inducer with a smaller A/R housing might be better than a smaller turbine with a larger A/R housing? Anyone seen anything on this? I am concerned that when we increase the compressor Exducer diameter that we are throwing the leverage between the compressor Exducer and the Turbine Inducer out of wack. Not such a big deal on an EFI motor, but a bigger deal on a CIS with its built in intake restriction.
Old 01-04-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
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I have been wondering why reducing back pressure in the exhaust makes a differance.


Thus leaving less room for fresh air & fuel with the intake cycle.

-----

.

I think this is exactly the key point !!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
In God we trust; everyone else better bring data. Especially in a world of inflated claims and inflated hp numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 964 T #304 View Post
911nut ,you don't think that map numbers cain't be inflated also? what do you want to see,,I am sure you can get someone to put it on paper for you
Sorry, I'm with 911nut on this one. Mapping you see on turbo maps done with sophisticated data collection equipment. Sure the data could be "cooked", but companies have their reputations on the line when it comes to delivering on their promises. It is far more accurate than the cookie-dough approach of trying this hot-side turbine with this cold-side compressor and let's see what happens.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:48 AM
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My muffler and waste gate dump are good for 12whp on a stock 300HP Euro 930 engine. The baseline engine I tested used the stock early Euro muffler. I also tested late USA 930s with CAT and found similar results. It is interesting to note that 0.75bar was maintained in both situations. I assumed boost may increase a little due to lack of back pressure on the waste gate but that did not occur on these stock cars. Any extra boost would of course scew the power number.
That is only a tiny part of the story. The engine revs quicker, more freely, and boost comes a few hundred rpm sooner. You also get all those great turbo sounds that the stock system hides. The driving experience is transformed.
A straight through non-restrictive and non-baffled muffler is a must-do before looking at performance enhancements. The turbo must not have back pressure.
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
That's true that you can find people with a failed KKK series either ...

As to the power, I don't think the fuel flow matching bring any additional power. It can bring you safety. The rebuild was carefully made on mine ( everything was changed and I spent some time in the workshop to see the job quality ) ..... and I even paid recently for double checking the valve timing since I wanted to investigate about the torque drop beyound 5300 rpm.

So except the rise in compression ( how much did you put ? ) I don't see any reason to be such different. In the mean time, all the 965 T that I know in france which has been modified with 964 NA camshaft (these cams can provide higher HP than SC cams as we have on our car) provide about 420 Flywheel HP under 0.95 bar with K7200. So do you think your higher compression bring about 50 to 60 HP compare to my setup ? or don't you think that your dyno is a bit optimist ?

I think the 60 to 130 MPH time won't bring an exact answer since the gear shift can be different between 2 drivers. But if you have a datalogging of the time you spend to go from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm in 3 rd gear .... it could be compared more accurately.

By the way, do you still have the stock wastegate cat exhaust or did you install a cat by pass on the wastegate exhaust ? Many thinks there is nothing to win except to get a nice "animal" sound. Normally the wastegate regulate the back pressure and there is no gain to get here.... that's I was thinking until now. But if we consider this problem in term of exhaust flaw, it is possible to think that the cata restriction reduce the total flow output under a given back pressure. Thus, it is maybe possible that with free flow exhaust on wastegate output, the back pressure remain the same as with cata restriction but the total flow is increased. What is your opinion Brian ??
No offence taken with comments hopefully on either side.

Not exactly sure how much compression was raised,the heads were skimmed to remove damage suffered from snapped head bolts and i also skimmed 0.007" of the barrels on my lathe to clean up face on them also.

The headwork done on my car was top notch also and flows were tested against various valve lifts before and after with print out to show excellent gains!(got data somewhere)

I disagree that flow matching will not bring you some hp gains as all six cylinders individual AFR's are then being tuned to give optimum power performance!..
In fact under near exact same conditions my car has gained 18whp between flow matching fuel and fuel curve improved over adjustable WUR /rpm switch to my new frequency valve set up.

My car runs 1 bar boost and no less.

Car has been tested on more than one dyno using optimax 98 ron fuel and the 401whp figure is from the lower dyno test and this dyno in known to give conservative read outs as it has been proved to me whilst testing mine and numerous other cars and 930's i have modded recently,completing on some occasions dyno runs before and after mods.
Also note that the dyno uses a very large fan at rear with ducting directly on top of the intercooler which definately helps produce nearer correct figure,,has your dyno this feature?

Same dyno last month under very similar conditons i tested a 930 i had modified.
1988 "euro" Low mileage 3.3 engine with excellent leakdown numbers
B&B headers with fabspeed muffler
1 Bar boost max
Koklen intercooler
Fuel flow matched from 12% variation to within 2% cylinder to cylinder.
Adjustable wur/rpm switch and tuned to achieve excellent fuel curve.ign timing 29degrees.
333whp(approx 370fwhp)
In my opinion this figure is pretty conservative also!

Also i was advised to roughly add on 40hp so i would be nearer 440fwhp not 460(maybe you use the 15% drivetrain loss which i dont agree with on a modded 930/964t)

As we all know dynos can vary and i believe there is more chance your figure is low rather than mine being high in my opinion..

I do think 60-130mph is a better test than most dynos to compare power outputs if you log under same conditions....Driver to driver gear change dont matter because you can adjust this to suit as this time is also clearly logged!

Anyway there was a seperate thread previously about people stating their 60-130mph times as this is best to compare power in similar cars under similar conditions,,jbl930 started the thread sometime ago..

Sorry if went off topic slightly,now back to the thread!!
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Last edited by stup; 01-04-2010 at 11:05 AM..
Old 01-04-2010, 10:59 AM
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Yes, yes!!!

Much better to have accurate turbo compressor test data.

However, if it is not and never will be made available is it better to fly blind or use a little interpolation so we have at least something to work with instead of blind acceptance.

I suspect compressor wheels with close to the same size inducer and exducer are going to be with in a reasonable percentage of each other as to gross flow rates as compressor A/R's dose not effect performance much. If a similar sized wheel is on its peak efficiency island at 35# and on the edge at 45# a magic design is not going to move this much but it might bump the net efficenty some. But this is just a guess.

Turbines might be a very different story as they function differently and they are sensitive to A/R changes.

Still, tests under the same conditions are going to be the ultimate for making decisions.

Last edited by 911st; 01-04-2010 at 11:10 AM..
Old 01-04-2010, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stup View Post


I disagree that flow matching will not bring you some hp gains as all six cylinders individual AFR's are then being tuned to give optimum power performance!..
In fact under near exact same conditions my car has gained 18whp between flow matching fuel and fuel curve improved over adjustable WUR /rpm switch to my new frequency valve set up.
I suspect flow matching on CIS is done at the fuel head, not so much at the injector (assuming a clean an properly functioning injector) but I could be wrong.

Flow matching will allow running with less margin of error so AFR's can be better fine tuned.

Dial in the control pressures and adjust base AFR and more ideal AFR's can be achived.

Get closer to ideal AFR's and one will deliver more power.

Last edited by 911st; 01-04-2010 at 11:11 AM..
Old 01-04-2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I suspect flow matching on CIS is done at the fuel head, not so much at the injector (assuming a clean an properly functioning injector) but I could be wrong.

Flow matching will allow running with less margin of error so AFR's can be better fine tuned.

Dial in the control pressures and adjust base AFR and more ideal AFR's can be achived.

Get closer to ideal AFR's and one will deliver more power.
Yes flow matching adjustments done via the meter head "with injectors fitted in place" as this is the fuel amount going into each cylinder..

Yes can tune closer to ideal AFR's then more power achieved..each cylinder then producing same power as one another in theory can only be a good thing also!
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Purpose built fuel controller set up to acheive perfect fuel curve on CIS inj.
Old 01-04-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I suspect flow matching on CIS is done at the fuel head, not so much at the injector (assuming a clean an properly functioning injector) but I could be wrong.

Flow matching will allow running with less margin of error so AFR's can be better fine tuned.

Dial in the control pressures and adjust base AFR and more ideal AFR's can be achived.

Get closer to ideal AFR's and one will deliver more power.


Yes I also think the flow matching is done by the fuel head. I also suspect the difference with brand new injectors is quite low if they come from the same batch.
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:19 PM
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Yes I also think the flow matching is done by the fuel head. I also suspect the difference with brand new injectors is quite low if they come from the same batch.
Thierry once you purchase your new injectors i would definately still test them even though they are new,test them with them fitted on the end of your injector lines but not fitted into your injector blocks...Test flow volume per 30 secs WOT into 6 individual bottles at the same time you may find you still need to adjust "" the meter head adjustment screws""..

The last few flow tests i have done on several 930's i have got the variation to within 2-3%....I also confirm this on light throttle(i.e meter plate approx 25%
open)and also confirm at meter plate 75% open!

It should be noted in taking your time adjusting and doing this and test correctly because i have seen several times now that you can be 2-3% at WOT but 12% at light throttle so its always best you can have best results under all simulated throttle postions although obviously WOT is most important!

If your very fortunate and find under all circumstances they are within 3% i would just leave them as is,as it can be easily adjusted and made worse or even threads can be damaged where screw caps in head need removed for adjustment!

If need any pointers when doing this just shoot me a PM.
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"92" 964 turbo,Modified and recently rebuilt using all ARP hardware..
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:53 PM
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The wastegate is a turbine flow control device. It’s impact on backpressure is secondary but exhaust backpressure continues to increase after it opens. The wastegate valve is like any other valve and it responds favorably when the pressure differential across it is increased, so reducing its dump path pressure has positive effects. Unless the wastegate (and feed) is too small it will hold the intake at a set point.

The peak compressor efficiency between modern compressors and others is only 5% and this is not significant. The flow range is significant. The factory KKK match at 6000RPM is in the low 60% range. Add another 500RPM and its mid 50%. Use a modern Garrett or KKK modified with a large compressor wheel and you are back into mid 70% efficiency at high RPM. This is significant.

Improved compressor efficiency reduces turbine backpressure as less power is needed of the turbine to produce a fixed intake manifold boost pressure.
Old 01-04-2010, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
The wastegate is a turbine flow control device. It’s impact on backpressure is secondary but exhaust backpressure continues to increase after it opens. The wastegate valve is like any other valve and it responds favorably when the pressure differential across it is increased, so reducing its dump path pressure has positive effects. Unless the wastegate (and feed) is too small it will hold the intake at a set point.

The peak compressor efficiency between modern compressors and others is only 5% and this is not significant. The flow range is significant. The factory KKK match at 6000RPM is in the low 60% range. Add another 500RPM and its mid 50%. Use a modern Garrett or KKK modified with a large compressor wheel and you are back into mid 70% efficiency at high RPM. This is significant.

Improved compressor efficiency reduces turbine backpressure as less power is needed of the turbine to produce a fixed intake manifold boost pressure.
A very good point. Another by product of with lower compressor efficiency is higher compressor outlet temperatures.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:10 PM
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Copbait73.

Well said and great info.

Have you seen anything about restriction before the turbo like a CIS 930 has and its impact on how it effects turbo selection, the map, or operating range?

And, anything on the value of a larger turbine wheel w smaller AR -v- a smaller turbine wheel and larger AR.

Is clipping the turbine wheel?

The effect of the "ratio" of the Compressor-Exducer to the Turbine Inducer?

Seems a more favorable ratio would reduce back pressure and still keep earlier onset. but I do not know this to be true.

I am have a lot to learn.

Thx if you can help.
Old 01-04-2010, 05:00 PM
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Dave, you are correct, but more to the point. High compressor efficiency, high CAC efficiency equate to lower intake manifold temperature. All things being equal lower intake manifold temperature gives you denser charge at a fixed firing pressure therefore more knock margin. Firing pressure and knock margin for available octane makes these critical considerations. This is a point I don’t hear discussed often enough.

One engine can have a modern Garrett and another KKK with large compressor wheel. Each can deliver the same boost pressure at equal temperatures. Both engines make the same power, right? Wrong. The Garrett will do so with a turbine of higher stage efficiency that also has a correct power balance match with the compressor wheel. This turbo will require less backpressure to drive the turbine. Net, the engine makes more power.

In the world of ultimate HP, the best turbocharger match has the highest positive differential of intake pressure to exhaust backpressure - at a fixed boost level. In this situation my money would be on a Garrett.

On the street, a good turbo match is more appropriately described as the best compromise to fit the expectations and needs of the owner; performance, installation and cost. Here Garrett, KKK production or KKK hybrid show strengths and weaknesses. I listen to everyone on this site and see no two are exactly alike in their assessment - and that is very natural.
Old 01-04-2010, 07:12 PM
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