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"Cheap is expensive"
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 514
-Stock liter and comperssion (rebuilt motor)

-SC cams

-Mani extrude honed

-GHL headers and Fabspeed muffler

-Powerflow intake

-15 psi boost (pump gas 91 octane)

-Modified Kokeln cold side with a 60-1, .7 AR

-Kokeln intercooler

-Orginal RPM activated WUR with orginal Euro fuel head mod

Hmmm, can't think of anything else, been a while.

Brent
Old 05-27-2010, 09:04 AM
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And stock intake ports w tapered intake blocks to match with the extrude honed and balanced intake manifold if I recall correctly.
Old 05-27-2010, 09:36 AM
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Your memory serves you well.

I also had the injectors flow matched.

Last edited by Brent 930; 05-27-2010 at 09:53 AM..
Old 05-27-2010, 09:49 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #103 (permalink)
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Thx Brent!

Make note guys, that is about 500chp/tq through stock sized intake ports with SC cams and flowed intake maifold.

Also that the old 60-1 turbo seems to be a great fit on two stock port cars.
Old 05-27-2010, 09:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
For what it is worth, looked at my dyno for my 85 3.2 normally asperated and it dynoed 153 wtq and 84 whp.

If one can get 1 bar by 3000 rpm in theory one should be able to just hit 300wtq and 160 whp. A 3.6 is about 12% larger and should make that much more or only need to be at about .8 bar by 3k rpm.

It takes 313 tq to make 180hp at 3k.
Posting this just for comparison, i know mine is 3.6, but even with the bigger capacity and little K16 turbines, 1.0bar is around 3500rpm. You'd need a turbo so small to get 1.0bar at 3000 that it wouldn't give you power up top



This is the boost on a GT4088R, with a 3.4ltr engine, wild cams, big ports, thin valve stems etc etc... It's nearing 5000rpm before 1.0bar

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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 05-27-2010, 09:59 AM
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I am a big believer that there is power hiding on the exhaust side by going with a larger and more efficient hot side. However that delays boost response.

However, I am interested in what seem to be a trend toward smaller fast acting hot sides with larger more efficient compressor wheels and using an efficient WG circuit to handle much of the exhaust flow so it can still make top end.

However, most do not concern them selves with how well the WG side flows. Just that it is large enough to keep from over-boosting.

No matter, it will alwas be a low end v top end trade off just like on a N/A car when it comes to cams.

Not sure but it might be that the motor's that seem to be making HP by 3k are running stock 930 cams that have about a point higher effective compression ratio than a C2 cam and they are timed to be efficent earlyer in the rpm range.

Last edited by 911st; 05-27-2010 at 11:02 AM..
Old 05-27-2010, 10:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #106 (permalink)
 
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There is a gap between max torque and max boost which must be taken into consideration. It is not accurate to simply state that boost must be in by X rpm in order to achieve max y torque at that same rpm.
On a stockish engine you would probably need to hit 1.0bar by 2800rpm in order to see 315+ ft/lb or torque by 3000rpm, which would hit the 180WHP goal. I'm pretty sure I can do that with my next setup and will report the results when I have time to do it.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-27-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I am a big believer that there is power hiding on the exhaust side by going with a larger and more efficient hot side. However that delays boost response.

However, I am interested in what seem to be a trend toward smaller fast acting hot sides with larger more efficient compressor wheels and using an efficient WG circuit to handle much of the exhaust flow so it can still make top end.

However, most do not concern them selves with how well the WG side flows. Just that it is large enough to keep from over-boosting.

No matter, it will alwas be a low end v top end trade off just like on a N/A car when it comes to cams.

Not sure but it might be that the motor's that seem to be making HP by 3k are running stock 930 cams that have about a point higher effective compression ratio than a C2 cam and they are timed to be efficent earlyer in the rpm range.
As you mentioned a larger hot side (say a T4 frame) would probably net more ponies up top but your spool would suffer. I don't even think going with a smaller AR would make up for it.

Main reason for playing with the Kokeln garrett style turbo was the more efficient hot side vs the KKK dinasour. Yes, I did have to change the oil feed line so it could live in the 930. It worked well, but in the end it wasn't worth it.

As for the wastegate I used a TIAL 46mm, which is good for 600+whp. The header flow design up to the inlet is a known bad design in the way it can bypass too much exhaust and cause boost creep.
Old 05-27-2010, 11:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
There is a gap between max torque and max boost which must be taken into consideration.
I am sure there is somthing good intened here but I am not sure what is trying to be conveyed.

We are not taking about max torque. Nor are we talking about max boost, nor there relationship to each other. We are talking about achieving a stated 'hurdle'.

That is, we may need 1 bar by 3k to make 300#. However, max boost might later be 1.2 bar or somthing and max TQ might be 500# or such.

There is a direct relationship between boost and TQ at all points subject to other influences and limitations.

That is, put 10% more air and fuel in a motor at a given rpm and the TQ will increase by close to the same percentage unless a limitation of some type is reached like the turbo falling out of its efficency range.


Quote:
It is not accurate to simply state that boost must be in by X rpm in order to achieve max y torque at that same rpm.
If you have a TQ goal or hurdel, and you have a reference point for TQ and boost at that same rpm, you can estimate the changes you can expect in TQ with changes in boost level.

There is a very high correlation and I am confident in my numbers.

Quote:
On a stockish engine you would probably need to hit 1.0bar by 2800rpm in order to see 315+ ft/lb or torque by 3000rpm, which would hit the 180WHP goal.
No matter, sound like we are 'mostly' in agreement on the out come give or take 200rpm.

However, when the motor gets more charge, it makes more power. Not 200 rpm later if that is what is intended. Not sure about dyno v real world feel nor any possable delay from how and where boost referance is taken. Still give me a dyno plot that says X and if the Goal X is 10% more, we need about 10% more charge to get there as any delay will already be factored in the plot.


Quote:
I'm pretty sure I can do that with my next setup and will report the results when I have time to do it.

For what it is worth I belive your turbo headers are probably the best of the best and to be coveted. Expecially when concidering value, quality and design and I am glad you are continuing your efforts to make them the best they can be.
Old 05-27-2010, 01:24 PM
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Keith, my statements relate to the output of a standard stock 930 engine with bolt-on modifications, I should have made that clear.
In that application specifically you are limited in total output therefore limited in how much total torque is produced. The goal as it is presented is to achieve 180WHP at 3000rpm which equates to roughly 315 ft/lb of torque. The lower the output of the engine the closer you must be to full boost (1.0bar for street 930) before you hit the target rpm. This is due to the peak torque occurring later than peak boost.
A higher output engine would not run into this dilemma.
We have seen 1.0bar at 2600rpm on a 400WHP CIS 930 which produces more than 180WHP @ 3000rpm so I know I can reproduce those results. I cannot post that dyno because it belongs to the client and they refuse to participate in internet wars.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 05-27-2010, 01:59 PM
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Thx Brian.

Here is the gold!

Quote:
..We have seen 1.0bar at 2600rpm on a 400WHP CIS 930 which produces more than 180WHP @ 3000rpm...
Old 05-27-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Thx Brian.

Here is the gold!

..We have seen 1.0bar at 2600rpm on a 400WHP CIS 930 which produces more than 180WHP @ 3000rpm...

Not possible, sorry
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Old 05-27-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
has anyone dynoed their 930 in 4th gear insted of 3rd? The higher load would spool the turbo sooner giving a higher torque number lower in the rpm range.
Here you go.

3rd vs 4th gear.



3rd gear dyno run. Peak boost 1.4bar dropping to 0.9bar.
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Last edited by crispeed; 05-27-2010 at 06:11 PM..
Old 05-27-2010, 05:57 PM
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crispeed.

You just made a good argument for the importance of controlling testing variables. And,

that comparing dynos results against others, or that buying one man's to good to be true results, may be a fools game.

Ouch.

Maybe dyno results should be discounted and the in car real world acceleration results as proposed earlier by DrMatera and JBL930 about post 11 should be very much considered.

Who cares how much HP or TQ you have. How fast can you get there?
Old 05-27-2010, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
crispeed.
Who cares how much HP or TQ you have. How fast can you get there?
In the real world that's most important.
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Old 05-27-2010, 07:29 PM
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Here's my chart as a data point for this "ultimate 930 dyno thread"

This is my freshly rebuilt engine with only 500 miles running CIS. Zero tuning and the following mods/parts:

K27-7200 "S"
Tial 46mm wastegate
Rarly L8 SSI exhaust system
Rarly L8 stock exit muffler
3.5 liter
7.5/1 compression ratio JE pistons (actual measured compression ratio was closer to 7.3/1 with a 1.25mm deck height)
SC cams timed full advance
Intake ports opened to 37mm (matched with injector blocks and manifold)
Electromotive XDI-2 twin plug ignition (with base map I programmed per input from Richard Clewett and Chris Carrol)
Leask WUR (with Brian's settings based upon my build)

As you can see max boost <10psi (haven't hooked up my boost controller yet)

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Old 05-27-2010, 07:44 PM
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
crispeed.

You just made a good argument for the importance of controlling testing variables. And,

that comparing dynos results against others, or that buying one man's to good to be true results, may be a fools game.

Ouch.

Maybe dyno results should be discounted and the in car real world acceleration results as proposed earlier by DrMatera and JBL930 about post 11 should be very much considered.

Who cares how much HP or TQ you have. How fast can you get there?

It's the only true comparative test IMO! You need to let other people have a look at the file, just to check that the run wasn't done on a huge down hill straight.
But all things being equal, there is no better test.
Small allowances can be made for runs done at different altitudes, and runs done in vastly different ambient temps. But a 60-130mph run really does show real world power. It is also a great way of checking the benifit of weight savings and aero tweeks
a 0-300kph run is even better, but rarely possible
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Old 05-28-2010, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Not possible, sorry
Is it really no wonder that the best data will likely never hit the net?
Apparenly now dyno data isn't even good enough. The variables in a 60-130mph run are more than a dyno with absolutly no way to control. Temperature, grade, body work and wind are HUGE variables.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Is it really no wonder that the best data will likely never hit the net?
Apparenly now dyno data isn't even good enough. The variables in a 60-130mph run are more than a dyno with absolutly no way to control. Temperature, grade, body work and wind are HUGE variables.

Sorry Brian but that is bollocks, there is WAY more room for BS on a dyno! Proper acceleration data done by a GPS based device like a Driftbox or AX22 is absolute. Done on a nice even straight road, making a note of the ambient temp, and knowing the weight of your car.... There is no room for BS then.
But i suppose most people that have a dyno sheet saying that they have 500rwhp and then see that they are doing 60-130mph in 9 or 10 seconds are too embarrassed to post, i can't really blame them...



"We have seen 1.0bar at 2600rpm on a 400WHP CIS 930 which produces more than 180WHP @ 3000rpm... "

^^^^^
This statement is total bollocks
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:24 AM
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