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If I had to do this all over again from scratch I would try to find a car with a G50 conversion and swap out to a 930 engine or go directly to a 930. The number of issues you have to deal with are substantial including the internal engine oil pump, turbo oil supply/scavenge, timing, fueling, intake plumbing etc.. The 915 puts significant limitations on torque. Optimally you want the mechanical 930 scavenge pump with the corresponding 930 or sportomatic oil tank plus vent/overflow tank. All of these things will nickle and dime you to death when seeking aftermarket solutions.
OTOH, it has been an incredible journey of self-education.

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Old 01-29-2010, 09:08 AM
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Shane feel free to PM or email me any time as I am doing the same as you are questioning.
This is my 2nd go at this, but this time decided to keep it simple and not do EFI.
AS others have said, it is difficult to keep it cheap. Just to give you an idea, I am very cautious with my spending and have been sourcing all of the necessary 930 parts to make the upgrade. So I have been looking for deals etc, and have a very good idea of the going prices for many of the parts required.
I have also been keeping a running total of costs and after 1.5+ yrs of sourcing parts, I know I am in over $3K already. Now would I have been better just buying a 930 engine, maybe, but I know my engine and recently had a top end done.
Now, I spent a little more for the 993 HEs (flipped flanges) and the M&K "Y" pipe, so if you use 930 HEs/J pipe and muffler you will save some money there.
Like others said it is all of the little things that 0.05 and 0.10 you and adds up fast! (not to mention the s&h for each part). Try to find parts as complete as possible.

Yes, go the factory scavenge system if you can, but you do not need the tank as you can use some AN hoses and fittings to dump back into the engine.

FYI There is a guy here parting a 930 engine, who would sell you a bunch of the parts you need. In fact would probably give you a great deal if you buy everything, plus you would save on shipping!
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Jeremy C.
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Old 01-29-2010, 12:20 PM
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I am not sure you would need a new clutch (unless you still have the orginal one with the rubber center) or a new fuel pump.
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Jeremy C.
Why's he calling me meat? I'm the one driving a Porsche. (Bull Durham)
----Nothing is far away in this car!----
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Old 01-29-2010, 12:23 PM
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for some reason the pics did not post...










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Old 01-29-2010, 12:52 PM
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I don't see much there that is usable.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:03 PM
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Cheep, cheep, cheep!

I missed the concept of "grassroots" as in Grassroots Motorsports 2010 challenge.

Could build it as a 'blow through' using the existing CIS system.

Blow through would cut the plumbing in half and increase turbo response and efficiency.

Would have to fab the plumbing to the CIS and probably make a sheet metal plenum.

The old turbo off a stock 930 is a good fit for the HP, works with oil cooling and is cheap used.

Using a 930 J pipe would make it easy. Alternately, just stick the turbo in place of the cat to the side of the motor and up a bit and drain it into the valve cover. If so just keep the stock muffler ( I would add a second tail pipe on the other side). This would make it stealth.

Could just put an air filter on the turbo or if put in the stock location could use a 930 snorkel with an air filter on the end of it.

Get a cheep adjustable WG off of ebay. Or maybe use a Porsche take off and make a spacer to fit under the spring can for lower boost pressure.

Use a 1" plastic Bosch BOV or aftermarket. As a blow through system the WG can vent to atmosphere.

More fuel could be had from just setting CO fat, shimming the control pressure some, and or by tweaking the WUR for more fuel with loss of manifold vac. The Lambda might be left in place to keep freeway MPG.

As to the ignition, I believe SC's have a Vac-Retard can and the late models a very short mechanical advance. Might be able to re-plumb it from the ported vacuum directly to the manifold and change the pot to a 930 pot or other boost retard pot and use the boost retard side only. This should get rid of the idle retard which is only for smog, and give us on boost retard. Could always use the MSD retard. Or, just disconect the vac reg and set the timing at -20 or so full advance.

If one wanted to get crazy might be able to hide a 944T intercooler in the fender wheel and cut a hole in the fire wall between the wheel wheel and motor compartment. This might work by reindexing the turbo, adding an elbo, and running the IC sideways.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DPHANS View Post



Last edited by 911st; 01-29-2010 at 05:34 PM..
Old 01-29-2010, 04:12 PM
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You have given me some more homework. Got to study up on blowthrough systems now. I had never heard of such until you posted that.
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:34 PM
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Of course this means you're gonna have to turn in your SCWDP badge .......
Maybe for a FunfGruppen one
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:33 PM
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Do not know if you will find anything. I do not know if anyone has done it with CIS. It is done often with EFI.

There should not be any reason it should be done. It would make the plumbing easier.

I would do it.


Here is a suck through system with bassically an SC lay out which I hope you have seen. . 73.5 911t cis turbo

Last edited by 911st; 01-29-2010 at 05:45 PM..
Old 01-29-2010, 05:37 PM
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There nis a thread on here somewhere that someone removed the boot between the sensor plate and the throttle body and used cobra heads in their place. I just dont remember where I saw it I looked it over real close as a possibility but had my mind set on doing the EFI conversion.
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Last edited by gsmith660; 01-30-2010 at 05:12 AM..
Old 01-29-2010, 06:18 PM
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Shane, Ok forget such things as blow through. Knowing the exisitng system I can't envision how to seal the plastic filter housing. Assuming you did the problem becomes your CIS is totally clueless once the manifold pressure goes positive.

What are your skills? If you can cut and weld a tube a grassroots guy can do this for less than $500. You'll have a mild boost compatable with your high C.R. and a very responsive motor. Nowadays turboing a motor does not require a huge a
outlay of $.

The Grand National T3 has a special turbine inlet foot.

My 3.0L had twins fed from the stock HE side collector flange. One turbo was in the CAT location and the other in 930 Turbo location. The side unit drained to the valve cover and the rear to the chain cover. Here is a shot of a 930 Turbo (3LDZ)unit lifted to drain into the chain cover. Required a simple modification of the rear mount.

Old 01-30-2010, 05:07 AM
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Time to decide how much fab work you are willing to do for this project.

If minimal fab work is one of the build parameters then stock 930 equipment is a must. You can source a complete 930 CIS system for ~$1000, a complete 930 exhaust system including 3LDZ for ~$500 and all the do-dadds to adapt the fuel, oil and electrical systems for another ~$500.
So you are looking at $2000 in used parts. This is the most economic and simple way to go in my opinion.

If you wish to do some fab work and engineering I would still use the 930 exhaust system and adapt the SC CIS for turbo use. Find someone who has done this exact conversion or you will waste a lot of money and time figuring it out.

Hidden costs will kill you on a conversion. The further you venture from stock the more hidden costs you will encounter. Best to find someone who has done exactly what you wish to do and see what the true costs were and the true efforts/pitfalls.
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Old 01-30-2010, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Best to find someone who has done exactly what you wish to do and see what the true costs were and the true efforts/pitfalls.
Exactly, Shane I know you mentioned you want this to be cheap, but how much were you thinking.
I have seen 930 CISs for $500-750. Besides the guy here who is parting a 930 engine, there was a guy on the east coast who had a Euro set up complete for $750 which is a pretty good price. Search the classifieds as he listed it here. I can not vouch for him though, dont know him. The other I saw on CL for $500, but not sure if it was complete.
Yes, if you go this route you would need longer intake studs, which took me a while to find used.
Let me know if I can answer any questions.
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----Nothing is far away in this car!----
-1978 911 SC TURBO, Minerva Blue Targa 965 update.
-2008 550i M-Sport
Old 01-30-2010, 07:23 AM
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I did not really have a number in mind, just wanted to see what could be done with for as little money possible. It has been an education so far.

One other question is: would it be possible to do more with less going a supercharged route? Then I would not have to dump my 911SC badge for a turbo one...

I have a friend in Nashville that has a SC motor but it was done before he bought it.
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Van Wey View Post
I did not really have a number in mind, just wanted to see what could be done with for as little money possible. It has been an education so far.

One other question is: would it be possible to do more with less going a supercharged route? Then I would not have to dump my 911SC badge for a turbo one...

I have a friend in Nashville that has a SC motor but it was done before he bought it.


Hi Shane, Personally for your goal I would stick with turbo charging.

Like you I'm trying to put together a basic turbo conversion. Where we still use, modify or adapt our existing fuel and ignition systems to keep the cost down.

I started down this path last winter when I had the engine out to freshen it up, valves, guides, rings etc.
Then it all starts down the slippery slope of " While I'm in there"
Next thing you know your thinking of all the other performance and future build things you can do and by then it to late your addicted,,,, lol Looking back, I started doing Way more than I needed all on the bases of future enhancements.

My point is, that it is very easy to wander from your initial goal, it was for me anyway,,,(look at my slippery slope signature ,, lol) So it helps to have a game plan of what you want, where your going, and what your going to use the car for, to help keep you on track.

Me well, I'm just an old fart that likes to giver on the back roads, so I don't really NEED a costly high HP build. Just something " Basic" to tinker and have fun with. Problem is once you get the HP bug,, You WANT more than you NEED.

My 2cents worth,,,, there is more than one way to get to the end result you want, decide whats right for you. J pipe, OEM waste gate and turbo works if you can find (good ones at a reasonable price). Don't forget to pick up a turbo distributor or recalibrate yours to pull back timing under boost.

For the increased fuel needs you can check out what this guy did. This is about as " Grass Roots" as you can get. 911SC Turbo


There is a tremendous amount of information here and on the net, unfortunately at times it takes a lot of searching to find it.

Good luck.
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Old 01-31-2010, 07:47 AM
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Cheap is about sourcing used low value parts.

I would not expect Supper Charging to be as good of a way to achieve this. A fair amount of HP is used up by the SC. There is still all the issues with timing, fueling, and much of the plumbing but now you have to design a mount and source pulleys. Also headers and sport muffler should be added to the recipe.

There are some OEM roots type blowers out there in the junk yards. However the Vortec style would probably be a better choice for an SC and those used are not going to be very cheap.
Old 01-31-2010, 07:48 AM
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911SC Turbo

This is the thread I was thinking of and took some inspiration from although I completely went away from the CIS part of it due to the lack of fine air/fuel control in my opinion in favor of EFI and EDIS the ignition part of it is the fact that your stock dizzy is not curved for a turbo application and needs some way to retard timing when on boost. Shane this is something very important to consider (ignition timing) since it would prevent pre-ignition and destroy your motor.
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76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 01-31-2010, 08:55 AM
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And this is where I would ultimately end up I got lots of inspiration and help from Ben at m&k exhaust here is a link to his build took me a while to find it as it isn't in his sig anymore.
my 3.2 ss/twin plug/turbo motor
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76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 01-31-2010, 12:02 PM
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There is no such thing as "low buck". You will pay one way or another, and be doing a really lot of R&D you didn't plan on. I am getting my tub back together soon, so I will have a BAE rev 3.0 thread soon.

You can either go really cheap, like Thad Suter did, or really expensive (hate to say it, but like I did). Live and learn. However, before I broke up the oil ring on #5at Watkins Glen, I was making around 275 RWHP at 5+ PSI boost, and the thing drove like a regular SC at low end because of the 8.5 pistons. The rebuild has special turbo mod JE 8:5 pistons, which are giving me a final static CR of 8.38:1. I would not go any higher on static without electronic ignition, EFI and boost control. Mine is stone age CIS, like most everyone here. My investment in CIS ultimately cost more than going EFI, but I am a stubborn purist...if one can bastardize a turbo setup and be called a purist. BTW, everyone on this board brings something to the table, and they are a great resource.

Here is rev 3.0:



Knock sensors...part of the J&S Safeguard unit going in:



The new Borg-Warner turbo:

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Old 01-31-2010, 03:18 PM
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Well said. Very nice build.

Track duty is a whole different thing.


What did you do for a timing strategy / boost retard?


Last edited by 911st; 01-31-2010 at 04:37 PM..
Old 01-31-2010, 04:35 PM
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