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Is the Secan a bar and plate or a tube and fin?

Jonathan,

I agree, this is worthy to coping.

Modest runs between the end tanks.

Make it as wide as possable.

Make it only as thick as needed to support the CFM expected without unnecessary pressure drop.

Size the end tanks oo velocity dose not have to change anymore than needed.

There are some similarities with this and Protomotive's air cooled intercoolers.

Old 01-31-2010, 02:40 PM
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The Secan is bar and plate, as are stock i think.
Jean has a Proto intercooler, and his is bar and plate, you can read a bit about it in his post on page 6 of the link i posted earlier.
I haven't seen pics of Jean's, but i know the 993 coolers you see on all the road going Proto builds seam to follow the Secan rule of thumb, front to back design, not too thick etc, end tanks are different though. I don't know what 90% efficency means to be honest, i think the only way to be sure your cooler is doing the business is to test it, Jean makes it quite clear that his isn't up to the standard of a Secan, and he races his 993.


Common Protomotive cooler, would love to see some actual data from one of these



Another shot of a Secan for comparrison

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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 01-31-2010, 03:47 PM
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Thx J,

The second Proto IC looks like the ratio of external to internal passages looks like the external is larger than the internal.

Not sure what efficiency means either. Would think a 100% would return boosted air temp back to ambient.

Iced water to air IC's can be more than 100% efficient I believe.

Air flow over the IC being a big variable I guess.

However, if this means if the air temp raises say 40 deg with boost, a typical IC at say 50% IC would cool it by 20 deg.

At least that is my guess.
Old 01-31-2010, 05:54 PM
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Well a couple of facts that we know is that the Secan keeps the temps within 20-degrees of ambient, and that the Secan coolers are the best in the world by a very long margin, all backed up by actual race testing. So an air to air intercooler for an air coooled Porsche, fitted under the rear wing, will never deliver ambient intake temps at WOT, the best you can ever hope for is 20-25 degrees above ambient.

So the Proto claim of 90% is either misquoted by Bruce Anderson, or just plain hype. There is a lot of hype with intercoolers, lots of 'how much bigger', and 'how little flow restriction', and how 'efficient' etc...
Another one with 'actual' data testing was the FVD bolt on cooler that was supposed to flow better than stock, have 50% more capacity, and obviously be a great bolt on upgrade. After testing it was proven to be worse than the stock 993 cooler! I had my hands on one, you can see from this pic that it's tube and fin, which will account for the better flow, and it was certainly bigger, but it was worse than stock. I think the intercooler debate is great, and i'd love to have a better cooler on my car, but what to do? I can't afford a Secan

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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 01-31-2010, 06:25 PM
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Jonathan,

Checked out the link you noted. Great thread and very advanced stuff going on with the TT guys.


Still learning.


Wondering about the effect of pressure drop.

Also wonder about those long narrow thick side to side IC's some of the 930 EFI conversion guys are running v something like DonE is running (back to front).
Old 01-31-2010, 07:34 PM
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A search of SECAN brings a result that is not surprising, performance or cost - Garrett(Honeywell). $20K is typical for custom Garrett CACs.
I think Bell still fabricates CACs using Garrett cores however his selection is probably limited and may not match the area/thickness ideal for a Porsche installation. Garrett has off and on offered, shelf stock cores to the aftermarket for custom fabrication. I'd do some measuring of the "SECAN" unit and check what is available for a custom fabrication.
The header designs on the Secan are also superior.
Old 01-31-2010, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
Well a couple of facts that we know ...So an air to air intercooler for an air coooled Porsche, fitted under the rear wing, will never deliver ambient intake temps at WOT, the best you can ever hope for is 20-25 degrees above ambient.
I respectfully disagree and have logs to show otherwise. A pair of properly shrouded puller fans will get intake temps within a few degrees of ambient at WOT on the track. Impervious to heatsink and draws 15amps. The whole setup is available from Summit Racing as the "scirocco drag radiator shrouded fans."

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Old 01-31-2010, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
I respectfully disagree and have logs to show otherwise. A pair of properly shrouded puller fans will get intake temps within a few degrees of ambient at WOT on the track. Impervious to heatsink and draws 15amps. The whole setup is available from Summit Racing as the "scirocco drag radiator shrouded fans."


Hi John, I should have said 'unassisted' or 'just relying on the engine fan' or whatever. There are guys using water injection who are getting intake temps down too, but i don't like the idea of having to fill up a reservoir every time i take the car out.

Your fan set up has me really interested, can you show me some of your results, do you have WOT runs on the same day with and without the fans?
If they work like you say it will be the very next mod i do!
As you know our biggest enemy is heat, and if i can get my charged air temps down "within a few degrees of ambient" as you say, at wide open throttle, i will be a very very happy chap, and save myself a very large chunk of change!

My Motronic ECU will start to pull timing as IAT goes up, from tests on another 993 with a stock cooler, on an 18 degC day at WOT (180+mph) the IAT goes up to around 54 degC, this will result in 4.5-degrees of ignition being pulled, which is about 30hp! If i can get my IAT down to anything under 37 degC on the same 18 degC day, I will be keeping all of my power!
More importantly, if i can get my IAT within a few degrees of ambient, i will be keeping full power even on a 35 degC day (which is about as hot as ever gets in the UK). In fact i only get 0.5 degree of ignition pulled all the way up to 43 degC IAT.



What intercooler do you have your fans fitted to? Did you make your own shroud? Do you have it triggered by some sort of temp switch?
If this set up works as you say, it would be great to have it triggered to come on when it saw post intercooler temps rising a certain amount above the actual intake temp at the airbox.
Looking forward to hearing more from you John, please post all the data you have
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:59 AM
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Two cents:

Could "shrouding" be the key word here. It would seem the motors cooling fan would pull more air than a couple of electric fans ever could.

A stock 993 is a good lesson in shrouding. To be a best practices set up not only dose the intercooler need to be shrouded but the motor intake needs to be shrouded.

Also, if the intake is sucking in air preheated by the intercooler this will result in higher intake air and might skew the temp readings.

Just a thought
Old 02-01-2010, 07:56 AM
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What's the CFM of the engine fan at say 6000rpm? The test of those three coolers on the 993's on the link was done on the same car, and was fully shrouded as they are from stock. If the electric fans can't move a LOT more air than the engine fan then i guess it's a none starter. Although you do need to take into consideration that the engine bay is not perfectly sealed, however hard you try i bet the engine fan only drags about half it's air 'through' the intercooler at best.
I'm looking forward to seeing some of John's data, it would need to be prolonged hard WOT to really show it working.

Here's a vid of me in a Secan cooled 993tt reading the post intercooler intake temps, it was a cold day, can't remember the ambient but around 7 or 8 degrees C at a guess, the temps i'm reading are actual temps. You can hear they drop rapidly when going slowly, and rise pretty quickly under hard WOT. The Secan on this day kept the charge air within around 12 degC of ambient, obviously easier on a cold day to keep temps down Inside Toby's 993tt video by jbl930 - Photobucket

And this is a vid of another run, not me this time, but a car i know and also has the same Secan cooler as the above car (in fact it's the car used in the tests on the other thread), this was a hotter day 22 degC but you can hear the info on the vid, it keeps the intake temp around 40 degC even at 193mph RS Tuning Porsche 993TT with Secan IC So on this day, and at this temp, the ECU will have pulled 0.5 degrees of timing. And with a stock intercooler would have pulled at least 4.5 degrees, maybe even as much as 6 degrees.
If this was a race then the Secan car, with everything else being equal, would have a MAJOR advantage. I wonder how much damage is caused to those cars without an ECU that can pull timing and boost when it sees high IAT?
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
Hi John, I should have said 'unassisted' or 'just relying on the engine fan' or whatever. There are guys using water injection who are getting intake temps down too, but i don't like the idea of having to fill up a reservoir every time i take the car out.

Your fan set up has me really interested, can you show me some of your results, do you have WOT runs on the same day with and without the fans?
If they work like you say it will be the very next mod i do!
As you know our biggest enemy is heat, and if i can get my charged air temps down "within a few degrees of ambient" as you say, at wide open throttle, i will be a very very happy chap, and save myself a very large chunk of change!

My Motronic ECU will start to pull timing as IAT goes up, from tests on another 993 with a stock cooler, on an 18 degC day at WOT (180+mph) the IAT goes up to around 54 degC, this will result in 4.5-degrees of ignition being pulled, which is about 30hp! If i can get my IAT down to anything under 37 degC on the same 18 degC day, I will be keeping all of my power!
More importantly, if i can get my IAT within a few degrees of ambient, i will be keeping full power even on a 35 degC day (which is about as hot as ever gets in the UK). In fact i only get 0.5 degree of ignition pulled all the way up to 43 degC IAT.



What intercooler do you have your fans fitted to? Did you make your own shroud? Do you have it triggered by some sort of temp switch?
If this set up works as you say, it would be great to have it triggered to come on when it saw post intercooler temps rising a certain amount above the actual intake temp at the airbox.
Looking forward to hearing more from you John, please post all the data you have
Firstly apologies to the threadstarter for hijacking.

Yes, I do have logs of with/without the fans running but they are on my external HD which I've loaned out, I'll remember to post them when I get it back. There is a substantial drop in temps.

I also looked at water inj and water-to-air intercoolers but I didnt like the various maintenance/cost/weight/complexity tradeoffs.

My intercooler was custom-built by Bell. I dealt with Gerhard, and they did an awesome job with the design and execution.

The shroud fits exactly to the cooler, as-is from Summit. I had to fabricate 2 brackets to "hang" it under the cooler. It has soft weatherstripping around the perimeter which creates an airtight seal. I run it through a relay which is switched by the ECU as described below.

Being in Sydney and running boost on hot days I've done a lot of work to handle and monitor temps including;

1. The fans are programmed in the ECU (Adaptronic) to come on whenever IAT exceeds 30 degreesC AND RPM > 1000. Thus I am not taxing the electrical system unnecessarily during cold starts. The ECU has the capability to do the calc you describe (ie switch on when temp delts exceeds a given variable) but that was unnecessarily complex and doing it as I describe leaves another ECU I/O channel available (which I use for a TPS meter for the camera system.)

2. The engine fan is overdriven by 50%. Pulls a lot more air but not too fast to stall or stress the alternator.

3. I have cylinder head temp sensors on each cylinder.

4. I log detonation and pull timing when it exceeds background noise levels.

5. I have a big honkin tail and grill opening which seems to get a lot more air into the engine compartment than stock. I havent properly blocked off the engine tin space to the frame yet, I bet that will drop temps a bit more. It isnt shrouded now because the new engine mounting systems interferes with the engine tin near the muffler.

This thread has a lot of pics of the tail, cooler and fans; Supercharged Race Car Build

Its back on the dyno now as we speak, I'm picking up smaller supercharger pulleys this weekend which should bring boost up to 15psi. I'll try and remember to do some pulls logging temps with/without the fans and post them.

j
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:09 PM
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Hi John, had a good read of your thread, pretty mad build, looks like you're almost there with it too, congrats!
I'm looking forward to seeing your data, I do hope it's data of actual runs out on the road, and not on the dyno? Really need to see with and without fan runs in real world conditions, i'm really interested in doing something similar if it works.

After searching through the fans available i'm going to struggle, my stock 993 intercooler is basically a two part jobbie with a middle tank, so i will need two small fans with a 10" square shroud, that are no thicker than 50mm and even thinner towards the edges (which they will obviously), and that pull a lot of air. Do you know of any?

By the way, i would probably try and set mine up so that they triggered to come on as soon as they saw post intercooler temps rise above 30 degC, or even 25 degC. I believe you've got yours triggered whislt sensing oil temps, what's the reasoning with that aproach?


What do you think of these fans? They are the highest CFM fans i could find that are around 2" thick, i think it would work without a full shroud, the majority of the core would be getting air pulled through it.... http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390143998542&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:AU:1123
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Old 02-03-2010, 08:27 PM
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:29 PM
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Oh Van, dragging such a juicy thread back from the dead with pics...dammit.

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Old 07-20-2017, 10:41 PM
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Oh Van, dragging such a juicy thread back from the dead with pics...dammit.

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Old 07-20-2017, 10:52 PM
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Weren't those something silly like $20k?
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Old 07-21-2017, 10:16 AM
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Weren't those something silly like $20k?
The last used one that I know of selling went for 17,500. New 25,000
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Old 07-21-2017, 10:38 AM
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that's a fine looking Ladeluftkuehler.

and RIP JBL930...first thing that came to mind reading this old thread is that Jonathan is no longer with us.
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