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Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinsko View Post
Ouch. I thought that I had bought the good stuff. Wayne even recommends the Clewett system in his book. So, my new twin plug crankfire system is worse than the stock system?
You bought an economically priced, older technology crank fire ignition system. It's not Clewett's system - it's Electromotive's. I owned it for 2 very long and frustrating years. After I sold the entire Electromotive system and bought the LINK, I kept wasted spark. I wasn't happy with drivability (idle, off idle accel, etc) and was finally talked into a full CDI ignition. Wow - what a difference everywhere. The drivability (and believe it or not, the economy) improved remarkably with idle and off idle acceleration improving the most.

Your stock OEM ignition is more powerful and reliable than the Electromotive System, but it cannot be modified to provide an adjustable curve. If you want the widest adjustability, crank fire is the only way to go (distributors, while supporting CDI, cannot give as wide an adjustability as an ECU). Torque is determined by the application of spark (and a good hot one too) during the compression stroke - too early, detonation; too late, no power.

To be clear, my comments on the Electromotive system are based on my experience in my car. I'm glad it's gone and I don't have to deal with Electromotive. I continue to support Richard Clewett.
Old 02-02-2010, 04:35 PM
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who makes the CDI system? I'd like to know more about it.
Old 02-02-2010, 06:27 PM
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I use a Motec M600 ECU to an M&W Pro 14, 4-channel CDI to six M&W dual output (waste spark) coils.

I'm having to split 3 of the CDI outputs to drive the 6 coils so it's not ideal but it works fine. M&W now makes a 6 channel CDI so I'll probably switch over to it at some point.
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2011 Cayenne Turbo
1979 930 (475 rwhp at 0.95 bar)
Old 02-02-2010, 07:16 PM
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I finally got the car back yesterday and would like to get your input on the dyno results and timing. I am not impressed with the power/torque before the car hits full boost. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Timing: this was done with input from Richard Clewett
AFR: this was done with input from Unwired Tools
Ambient temp: approx. 80F

Engine:
complete rebuild
8:1 CR
Unwired Tools UTCIS-PT digital WUR
Electromotive twin plug XDi2 crankfire ignition
Tial wastegate w. 0.6 bar spring and Blitz dual solenoid EBC @ 1bar
Zucz cold air intake
B&B headers and muffler







Old 04-24-2010, 02:03 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Can you post the dyno?
If all those things are working properly you might look at better headers and a quick spool turbo.
Your car is a C2T, do you have a cat bypass or muffler bypass or both or ??? There is lower threshold to be gained by replacing at least the cat and optimally both cat and muffler.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 04-24-2010, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Can you post the dyno?
If all those things are working properly you might look at better headers and a quick spool turbo.
Your car is a C2T, do you have a cat bypass or muffler bypass or both or ??? There is lower threshold to be gained by replacing at least the cat and optimally both cat and muffler.
Sorry, but what do you mean by 'post the dyno'?

The exhaust system is a full B&B system, i.e. headers, muffler, cat delete.
Old 04-24-2010, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinsko View Post
Sorry, but what do you mean by 'post the dyno'?
He is probably asking you to post the graph showing the dyno results. It is hard to offer any other advice without first seeing the dyno graph.
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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 04-24-2010, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrat930 View Post
He is probably asking you to post the graph showing the dyno results. It is hard to offer any other advice without first seeing the dyno graph.
Strange, I posted them in my original email and they show in Firefox, but they don't show in Safari. I linked them from my Rennlist album. I don't know how to upload pictures directly to PP.

Can someone post them for me?
Old 04-24-2010, 07:12 PM
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pm me your email addy, and I can do it for you....
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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 04-24-2010, 07:17 PM
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It's possible that advancing the timing quite a bit when the the motor is running normally aspirated and the turbo is not boosting would really wake it up and that probably doesn't cost anything with your ignition system, but I have no idea what your timing curve is now.
Old 04-24-2010, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
It's possible that advancing the timing quite a bit when the the motor is running normally aspirated and the turbo is not boosting would really wake it up and that probably doesn't cost anything with your ignition system, but I have no idea what your timing curve is now.
I posted the timing table along with the dyno graphs. I guess, that they don't show other than on my computer...
Old 04-24-2010, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinsko View Post
Strange, I posted them in my original email and they show in Firefox, but they don't show in Safari. I linked them from my Rennlist album. I don't know how to upload pictures directly to PP.

Can someone post them for me?
Lets try this and see if it works... working with 1990 technology at work here!!!!!







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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 04-24-2010, 08:33 PM
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Brad,

thanks a lot for posting the graphs.
Old 04-24-2010, 08:39 PM
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Pinsko,
Thanks for posting the graphs on your 930. You haven't commented on the numbers but here's a couple of things that are pretty obvious at first glance;

1.) You're pig rich at boost onset. Starts at 12.2-12.4 AFR and then plummets to 10.0 AFR @ 3000RPM....boost onset? It does recover by the time it reaches 6000RPM, but is still a little low (11.5 AFR), IMHO. It would be interesting to find out if the overshoot in the AFR's is due to the info plugged into the tables, by the tuner, or is it an issue of latency in the DWUR.

2.) Calculating for drivetrain losses of 15%, it comes out to 364.5BHP, which to me seems about right based on your build, unless you changed your cams, but I don't see them mentioned above. Cutting over to SC or 964 type cams can add an additional ~30BHP.

Again, thanks for sharing. Cheers.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 04-25-2010, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
Pinsko,
Thanks for posting the graphs on your 930. You haven't commented on the numbers but here's a couple of things that are pretty obvious at first glance;

1.) You're pig rich at boost onset. Starts at 12.2-12.4 AFR and then plummets to 10.0 AFR @ 3000RPM....boost onset? It does recover by the time it reaches 6000RPM, but is still a little low (11.5 AFR), IMHO. It would be interesting to find out if the overshoot in the AFR's is due to the info plugged into the tables, by the tuner, or is it an issue of latency in the DWUR.

2.) Calculating for drivetrain losses of 15%, it comes out to 364.5BHP, which to me seems about right based on your build, unless you changed your cams, but I don't see them mentioned above. Cutting over to SC or 964 type cams can add an additional ~30BHP.

Again, thanks for sharing. Cheers.
Unwired Tools suggested to go to 10 AFR at the boost onset. Perhaps they suggested this b/c this is a typical setup for a mechanical WUR?

The cams are stoch, but the timing was advanced.
Old 04-25-2010, 06:22 AM
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Great info on the graphs.
Unwired Tools suggested that AFR curve? That system is supposed to be for performance, that is not a performance curve.
The power curve appears typical for your modifications although 3600rpm full boost is late for a 7200 with headers.
I, as others, would suggest you first adjust your AFRs to an aggressive curve. Once that is dialed in we can make suggestions that would pull the threshold down. Better headers and an S turbo alone should lower your threshold 500rpm based on the present curve.
Changing transmissions or gearing is a drastic measure that I would not consider until the engine is optimized. As you add power and lower threshold your engine will grow into the stock gearing.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:06 AM
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What would be considered more aggressive curve - approx. 11.5 - 12AFR under boost?

Any comments re timing?
Old 04-25-2010, 07:15 AM
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It's clear that there is a problem here. The MAP sensor is not correct for the boost. The problem is the boost is at 22 PSI ( 1.5 bar) and the timing MAP is only going to 208 (1 bar). If the timing map were scaled for a 3 bar MAP sensor it would be a conservative table.

Solution, put in a 3 bar sensor and rescale the timing MAP. At this time you can optimize your timing.

The timing numbers mentioned earlier in this thread are OK if you want snappy don't mind rebuilding your engine all the time. The goal with ignition timing is to have peak cylinder pressure 14 degrees ATDC. Peak pressure before that time is trying to push the heads off the engine, beating up rings, rods and bearings. If the peak pressure is later than 14 degrees ATDC, you could be leaving power on the table.

There is a good book called Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. It has a lot of good information on setting up turbo systems. This is one of the many topics in the book. It is worth reading if you are going to be playing with turbo systems.

Richard
Old 04-25-2010, 07:18 AM
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I am not familiar with how that timing table is setup (Y axis) so cannot comment on it.
Your AFRs need not drop much below 11.0:1 at boost onset or max torque. 11.8:1 is a good safe target for redline, which is close to what you now have.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Last edited by RarlyL8; 04-25-2010 at 11:46 AM.. Reason: wrong axis - doh!
Old 04-25-2010, 07:40 AM
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Richard,

Thanks for chiming in. Doesn't the second graph show that max boost is approx 14psi or 1bar?

Does the increased CR influence timing?

I will try to find a copy of the book you recommended.

Last edited by Pinsko; 04-25-2010 at 07:52 AM.. Reason: Spelling
Old 04-25-2010, 07:47 AM
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