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Identify a Turbo

Hello,

can I get some help to identify this turbo. Also is it a good turbo for a 86 930?


Old 02-01-2010, 10:17 AM
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No help yet! I can see it's a Garret but what is the M33 A/R.60 ..... Is it a GT35?
Old 02-01-2010, 03:23 PM
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No help yet! I can see it's a Garret but what is the M33 A/R.60 ..... Is it a GT35?
That is the compressor housing casting designation and doesn't tell you a lot. You need to see the nametag.
Old 02-01-2010, 06:16 PM
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A good picture of the hot side housing/center section will help too, if the tag isn't visible.

However, based on the small oil return line, I'm going to bet that it is a Garrett ball bearing turbo. Based on the compressor housing, the fact that it has a 4 inch anti-surge inlet, and the .60 A/R... my money is on it being a GT30R, also called the GT3076R.
Old 02-01-2010, 10:58 PM
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Pictures are from seller and he does not have any from other side so this is all I have to work with. He's not sure what turbo the shop put on car...
Old 02-02-2010, 06:30 AM
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Well... I'm convinced it is a GT30R (3076). The M33 marking, the .60 A.R, that rectangular shaped part on the cold side casting, the boss in the casting for boost control signal, and the 4 inch inlet are all exactly like the GT30R.
Old 02-02-2010, 08:27 AM
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It is a gt3076- on a stock style application, it seems to be a damn good fit for our cars from the looks of the compressor map. However, I do not think it is ball bearing due to the size of the oil pressure fitting. Ball bearing turbos need -4 an fittings and smaller, that one appears to be a -6 pressure line which indicates that it is a non ball bearing.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 930gt-40r View Post
It is a gt3076- on a stock style application, it seems to be a damn good fit for our cars from the looks of the compressor map. However, I do not think it is ball bearing due to the size of the oil pressure fitting. Ball bearing turbos need -4 an fittings and smaller, that one appears to be a -6 pressure line which indicates that it is a non ball bearing.
I have to (respectfully) disagree. That oil return line is *small*... looks like -8. you would never use that small of a return line on a journal bearing turbo. Further, I am not aware of Garrett ever producing a 3076 with a journal bearing... closest thing was a 50 trim T03/T04E hybrid.

As far as sizing... yeah, the 30R (3076) is a nice fit... good for moving an efficient 50 lbs/minute. I use that turbo in one of my 2.2 liter Audis, and it puts out 442whp on an all wheel drive dyno. However, I think the turbine (hot side) options are not too good for a 3.3 liter engine. The largest hot housing is a 1.06 A/R... and the turbine wheel is only 60mm. That is where the GT35R comes into play... larger housing and a 68mm turbine wheel.

To me, if you didn't want to try and run a ball bearing turbo without water cooling, another option might be the GT37 journal bearing turbo. Moves a good amount of air, and has a large enough turbine section.
Old 02-02-2010, 09:35 AM
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Then maybe it is a 50 trim with a big compressor cover on it as it does not look like garrett offers a 3076 with out ball bearing. However, I still stand that it is not a ball bearing. All of our returns are -8 regardless of bearing style. It is the feed line that matters in this case and the feed is to large for a ball bearing turbo being that it is a -8. Most people steer away from the ball bearing for our application because they have coolant passages and people simply don't know what to do with them. I am not aware of the 50 trim being availible with the compressor cover that this turbo has, but it isnt as much of a stretch as using the -8 feed line on a ball bearing center housing. So the answer lies between a 50 trim/3076 without the 3076 ball bearing housing.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djdawson2 View Post
To me, if you didn't want to try and run a ball bearing turbo without water cooling, another option might be the GT37 journal bearing turbo. Moves a good amount of air, and has a large enough turbine section.
P.S I have a precision PT-67 dual ball bearing for sale (roughly 37r)if you know anyone interested. Sorry to hijack
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:53 AM
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Question.

What is or what should we expect from an 'anti surge' style compressor?

I suspect compressor maps are without any undue restriction before the inducer.

Should we change or expectations when looking at a compressor map for a CIS 930?

With the restrictive metering system such maps should be optimistic it would seem?
Old 02-02-2010, 12:50 PM
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Question.

What is or what should we expect from an 'anti surge' style compressor?

I suspect compressor maps are without any undue restriction before the inducer.

Should we change or expectations when looking at a compressor map for a CIS 930?

With the restrictive metering system such maps should be optimistic it would seem?
Turbocharger compressors are tested to rigid industry standards on a laboratory gas stand.
Anti-surge compressors effectively broaden the map. For the Porsche, and most gas applications, this means the engine will operate in areas of higher efficiency through a broader engine RPM range.
Anti-surge was developed in the late 80s for modern diesels having electronic control of injection, primarily so they could operate at higher altitudes without going into surge.
Intake restriction can be accounted for in your "atmospheric conditions" portion of the P.R. calculations.
Regarding testing with actual vehicle inlet and discharge manifolding, I was part of doing this 36 years ago (GM Vega pull through compressor with Holley progressive carb) and a unique map" was generated. However, since then I've heard of no one in the turbo industry having any interest to do so.
That said, I learned on my first homegrown turbo application analytical compressor matching and actual operation within the engine system described by the manifolding, can be wildly different.

Last edited by copbait73; 02-02-2010 at 02:07 PM..
Old 02-02-2010, 01:44 PM
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Cool.

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Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
...turbo application analytical compressor matching and actual operation within the engine system described by the manifolding, can be wildly different.
Thus, a shot in the dark?

But it sounds like we should understand that CIS pull through dose impact the usefulness of the compressor maps as to a 930 application.

How much and how to best chose a map that will work is up in the air.

I believe a K27-7200's compressor map is rated up to 425hp.

However on a pull through CIS 930 390-400chp seems the limit.

Not sure if that is useful info or even accurate.

Thx.

Last edited by 911st; 02-02-2010 at 02:27 PM..
Old 02-02-2010, 02:21 PM
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Cool.
Thus, a shot in the dark?
I wouldn't go to this level, one must have some standard to do applications work. Most diesel applications have fairly large diameter straight on entry and discharge ducting.

What I found, my homegrown gas installation of discharging right into a bonnet ( pressure carb) allowed me to run an extremely high flowing compressor without surging. The paper match for this compressor was in surge its entire operation.

I reasoned the small inlet of the paper match compressor was seriously restricting my N.A. operation, therefore "boost response" so having the hardware readily available I began adding larger and larger compressors with more improvement with each change. Right up to the largest of the framesize. The turbo was the 3LDZ progenitor.
Old 02-02-2010, 03:24 PM
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copbait73

I am very interested in how we might accommodate the drag CIS creats on the air flow before it enters the compressor to use as a guide to use for matching a turbo to such a condition.

What variables should be look for to minimize said condition?

Larger inducer w modest exducer size or what?

Different turbine make up or trim?

Change in the balance or relation ship between the turbine and compressor?

Or just discount the compressor map 10-15% or something.

I guess if we measure the negative pressure on the intake to the turbo it might fit into some type of equation but that is over my head.

Any guidance or thoughts you can share on this would be very much appreciated?
Old 02-02-2010, 05:02 PM
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Change in the balance or relation ship between the turbine and compressor?
I don't think the CIS inlet conditions are an issue.

Here is what I think about turbos. Most are purchased for their compressor maps when the turbine stage has the most impact on power and longevity. This was a trend we quickly noticed when CACs became the standard on diesels. Garrett have excellent turbines, BW/Schwitzer turbos have excellent turbines, BW/KKK are a step down.
Old 02-02-2010, 07:38 PM
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Cac?
Old 02-02-2010, 08:44 PM
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Cac?
Charge-Air-Cooler
Old 02-02-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
Garrett have excellent turbines, BW/Schwitzer turbos have excellent turbines, BW/KKK are a step down.

This part I agree with. Many of my fellow Audi friends tried to use Garrett/KKK hybrids, simply for ease of installation. They would match up a KKK turbine housing with a GT30R, or a more typical 50, 54, or 57 trim journal bearing Garrett T04E compressor. The result were less than flattering compared to those people using full Garrett units.

Back to the compressor map topic:
I think the compressor map is a very good place to start when trying to determine the correct choice for your application. I think compressor surge has become more of a problem since the use of ball bearing turbos, as well as running higher boost. The BB turbo's ability for rapid spool-up has dramatically increased the probability for encountering compressor surge, especially in high boost applications. Why? Well, start plotting your engine's flow rate at various engine speeds on a compressor map... it becomes clear.

I've tested and dyno'd a lot of Garrett turbos, both GT series BB turbos, and more typical journal bearing turbos. I've tested turbos of both varieties with similar compressor maps. The difference is that the BB turbo spools up very fast... almost too fast for the size of the compressor. The result is too high of a PR at too low of an engine flow (lbs per minute). When this happens, we end up at a point left and above the surge line on the map... and this spells trouble. A surging compressor wil very quickly trash the bearing section of the turbo, especially if it is a BB.

Bottom line, I do believe you need to be more conservative when selecting a BB turbo. You do need to factor in a higher potential PR at lower engine flow. I think the presence of anti-surge housings on the GT BB turbos simply tells us that Garrett knew this beforehand. I have never seen anti-surge tactics employed on their journal bearing turbos... nor have I ever experienced surge with them.

Personally, if I had the time to do extensive experimenting with Garrett turbos on a CIS 930 with a 3.3, I would probably begin with the journal bearing GT37, based on the data available. This turbo, equipped with an 82mm compressor wheel, is capable of moving about 55 lbs/min efficiently. The turbine section is more appropriately sized (vs. a 3076) with a 72.5mm wheel and a housing A/R of 1.12. All of this seems ideal for a 3.3 turbo running 1 bar or less of boost.
Old 02-02-2010, 09:18 PM
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PR?

55/hr is about how may HP?

Thx.
Old 02-03-2010, 07:45 AM
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