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-   -   Bell Intercooler (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/525511-bell-intercooler.html)

Garrison 02-08-2010 07:58 AM

Bell Intercooler
 
I have been talking with Bell Intercooler about having them spec up one for me, and have a couple questions for you guys.

For mostly street driving, with some track work, what would make the most sense; half-bay or full-bay? Or does it really matter? I have read and heard that the larger the intercooler the potential for longer spool up.

I am still learning when it comes to these cars, and am not sure what would be best for me. I don't plan on anything crazy... headers, K27S, 1 bar spring (once larger cooler is in place), no A/C, etc.

Also, has anyone had any experience with Bell? They seem to be top notch on the phone and over e-mail. Can build me a half-bay in 1 week... full-bay in 2 weeks. Cost is basically the same... roughly $1000.

Thanks guys!!! Here are a few pics for you.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265644683.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265644716.jpg

David 02-08-2010 09:09 AM

That top engine is mine and it's a Bell core but I fab'd up the tanks at work.

I asked Bell about the lag from the larger intercooler and they said you might notice the difference if you drove two identical cars with different intercoolers, but otherwise it's insignificant.

The only drawback to the Bell cores is the weight. My intercooler weighs right at 30 lbs.

If I did a full bay again, I'd probably use a 3" core to lose some weight. Unless you really want the AC condensor in the back, I'd go full bay so it's as efficient as possible.

Garrison 02-08-2010 09:27 AM

Yeah, they recommended a 3" core due to my HP goals, and for weight savings.

RarlyL8 02-08-2010 09:40 AM

I am working with Bell on development of the stock replacement unit in the second picture. It will look more refined when finished and there will be zero fitment issues, a true bolt-on.

wjfk32 02-08-2010 10:06 AM

What about a Kokeln style intercooler??? Larger surface area..etc.etc...

The 2nd pic doesn't look that thick/camera angle or does that matter.... Questions


Walter

WERK I 02-08-2010 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 125shifter (Post 5173205)
That top engine is mine and it's a Bell core but I fab'd up the tanks at work.

I asked Bell about the lag from the larger intercooler and they said you might notice the difference if you drove two identical cars with different intercoolers, but otherwise it's insignificant.

The only drawback to the Bell cores is the weight. My intercooler weighs right at 30 lbs.

If I did a full bay again, I'd probably use a 3" core to lose some weight. Unless you really want the AC condensor in the back, I'd go full bay so it's as efficient as possible.

David,
Do they do full bays with a thinner core?

Garrison 02-08-2010 10:16 AM

They do full bays at thinner cores for sure. I am looking at 3" vs. 4.5" as David has. For the cost it sure seems like it is hard to beat...

Brian, you are working with Bell for your car, or for another product line? Just wondering... seems like they could be a good resource.

hobieboy 02-08-2010 10:47 AM

I worked with Gerhard @ Bell to design mine as well. Mine is based on a 4.5" full bay core, but different than David's though (There's a picture of mine in the Turbocharging Performance Handbook :) ) - Gerhard suggested a left-right core as opposed to front-back.

I am very happy with the performance though weight is the big penalty. I remember weighing mine & its close to 40lb.

I suspect if you only use your car for street, a thinner core would suffice.

forwheeler 02-08-2010 11:00 AM

125shifter,
That setup looks great. I am interested in doing an almost identical intercooler setup except I will probably go with a 2.5-3" IC.

Can you tell me a little more about the plumbing? It looks like you drilled a new opening in the engine tin for the air cleaner to the turbo inlet.
Can I ask where you sourced the pipe and other fittings?
I assume your BOV is behind and attached to the IC.

David 02-08-2010 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forwheeler (Post 5173479)
125shifter,
That setup looks great. I am interested in doing an almost identical intercooler setup except I will probably go with a 2.5-3" IC.

Can you tell me a little more about the plumbing? It looks like you drilled a new opening in the engine tin for the air cleaner to the turbo inlet.
Can I ask where you sourced the pipe and other fittings?
I assume your BOV is behind and attached to the IC.

The inlet pipe is 3" (I think) so I had to open the tin a little. I also had to dent it a little to clear the engine mount. 3-1/4" or more would be better, but I wanted to keep it in the stock location.

All the tubing is from Burns Stainless - Home

If you look close, you can see the BOV on the turbo to IC pipe, where the distributor would normally be.

forwheeler 02-08-2010 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 125shifter (Post 5173549)
The inlet pipe is 3" (I think) so I had to open the tin a little. I also had to dent it a little to clear the engine mount. 3-1/4" or more would be better, but I wanted to keep it in the stock location.

All the tubing is from Burns Stainless - Home

If you look close, you can see the BOV on the turbo to IC pipe, where the distributor would normally be.

Cool, thanks for the info! I may be calling Bell soon.

drmatera 02-08-2010 08:04 PM

i've got 2 bell 12"x8"x3" cores that i plan on making my intercooler with when i do the twins. considered laying them out like a stock 993TT with the inlets to the outside blowing into a common plenum then to the TB. With a difuser in there to direct flow

Reaper930 02-09-2010 01:30 AM

I had a new Bell fabbed up for my K3 in the rear seat, 3" thick , 10 x 30"...cooling is about the thickness with these cars, or lack there of. The thinner the core (min 3") is better with wider bay design for more airflow to surface area ratio as the air in the thicker cores heats up quick, so unless you're feeding it tons of air, thicker isn't always better.

My IC is force fed via ducts in the rear quarters and I didn't even go with anything thicker than 3".

JohnJL 02-09-2010 03:47 AM

I use a bell, very happy with Gerhard, Corky and their advice and workmanship

jonesb930 02-09-2010 05:54 AM

Bell has a great selection of core sizes as well. I am leaning towards them as well. I don't plan on buying until I get everything else mounted up and the engine back in the car so i can maximize the size and keep the fitment clean.

Garrison 02-09-2010 07:47 AM

Good to hear that so many people on here are either using them, or looking to use them. Guess I know what my next mod will be. :)

911st 02-09-2010 09:27 AM

CIS or EFI?

Air Conditioning or not?

Have you done a search using "intercooler"? lots of very good info to be had.


The core, end tanks, and air ducting through the IC all are important to good intercooler performance.

A thinner wider core it better. A thick core needs a longer run to work as well.

The more air through the core the better the IC is going to work.

Note that 993TT not only has ducting for the intercooler but also ducts the motors intake up to the grill surface to ensure it gets fresh air. If we allow the intercooler to preheat the intake air it would go against all our goals.

Poor end tank design can add to pressure drop and turbo lag.

Of course extra volume has to be pressurized and that takes time.

Maybe more importantly might be to consider how air flows through the IC. Quick changes in direction & volume creates turbulence and contributes to back pressure. Abrupt corners that usually come with most fabricated tanks can also create turbulence and add to the pressure drop expected from the core. A well designed cast or CNC'd end tank like Porsche or MODE uses is usually going to make for a more orderly air flow and be best.

Notables from other threads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 964 T #304 (Post 3449380)
You could also use a C2 turbo type system that has a shroud on intercooler and also vents dedicated for air to air box and engine.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1188308551.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1188308609.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265733943.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265736011.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265736090.jpg

http://members.cox.net/turbo930brat/DSCN1035a.JPG

Garrison 02-09-2010 09:41 AM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265737243.jpg

This is of interest for sure. I was wondering if anyone that goes with a full-bay has issues with airflow to the intake as well? Was the above home made, or is this a kit?

911st 02-09-2010 10:02 AM

He made it himself.

Great idea.

copbait73 02-09-2010 12:19 PM

Not to disparage any of the aftermarket coolers shown however look at the location, angle and attention to detailed "flowing" of the stock 964T intercooler inlet casting. I would think that given many years to test numerous configurations leading up to release of the only improved CAC on the single turbo motor this may be a design configuration to duplicate for maximum efficiency.

drmatera 02-09-2010 01:04 PM

We have plans for my intercooler. Our design will be based on air flow path and distribution across the cores. We will have diverters welded inside the tanks to ensure the whole core gets even distribution of air to maximize cooling. Cast tanks would be great but weight and cost prohibit that

911st 02-09-2010 02:04 PM

The 964T is my favorit. Not only dose it have a wide thin core it has the best end tanks.

Further the goodness starts at the turbo discharge with a tube that is steeped on the inside to provide smooth flow and transition from the turbo and into the IC.

RUF chose it for most its C2 & 993 conversion kits and I think for up to a rating of 425hp. However, they added a flange around it to aid in sealing.

911nut 02-09-2010 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copbait73 (Post 5175699)
Not to disparage any of the aftermarket coolers shown however look at the location, angle and attention to detailed "flowing" of the stock 964T intercooler inlet casting. I would think that given many years to test numerous configurations leading up to release of the only improved CAC on the single turbo motor this may be a design configuration to duplicate for maximum efficiency.

Don't think so.
Stock intercoolers are built to a price point that's lower than the aftermarket. They are good at what they do, give what they are but they aren't the last word in efficiency.
After you read this you might change your mind: 9M Prototype intercooler test report - Rennlist Discussion Forums

copbait73 02-09-2010 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911nut (Post 5176009)
Don't think so.
Stock intercoolers are built to a price point that's lower than the aftermarket. They are good at what they do, give what they are but they aren't the last word in efficiency.
After you read this you might change your mind: 9M Prototype intercooler test report - Rennlist Discussion Forums

Don't confuse my comment regarding efficient handling of airflow with the cost and performance of the basic heat exchanger core. No OEM can justify the cost of a premium core configuration. Premium cores are not cost/benefit justified for most street applications. Only those who track their cars or those running at extreme HP are getting payback on their investment over what the OE provides from the factory.

911st 02-09-2010 05:16 PM

I think that is the same thread I once read on the 9m. If so my take away was it was hard for most the aftermarket I/C's to beat the stock 993TT intercooler and many had spend a lot of dollars on IC's thinking they would make in improvement only to discover from some of the tests that was not to case.

There seems to be very little quality testing of intercoolers. I would guess any testing would include the temp deltas as well as pressure drop.

I like these end tanks and IC for a fabricated unit. Note the ducting to the motor intake.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265764339.jpg

DonE 02-09-2010 06:29 PM

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265768559.jpg

Thought I would throw my Bell IC out here too. Thanks to David (125shifter) for his specs as it works very well. If I had it to do all over again, I would make it side to side and 3in core but again, it works well for my EFI conversion.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265768582.jpg

I thought I would throw this one in to show how I use the stock 3.2L throttle position. No need for cutting and twisting.

SCHNELE 02-09-2010 06:34 PM

I don't think Ruf used the 964 on any application but the RCT.

911st 02-09-2010 08:37 PM

C2 & 993 RCT at apx 380hp and Evo at 425hp if I recall correctly but it has been years.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265777249.jpg

Reaper930 02-10-2010 03:12 AM

The hoses are feeding the turbos...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265764339.jpg

Garrison 02-10-2010 07:07 AM

Done, you said above side to side and 3 in core... I am assuming you are talking about the tanks being on the sides, or the rows running side to side vs. top to bottom? Just wondering what you ment and why? Trying to make sure I get it right when I order this. THX

911st 02-10-2010 07:33 AM

Don, I to am wondering about your comment.

In my words your current core runs front to back. If you are saying a 3" side to side, I would not think you could get enough CFM through it.

Your current fabricated IC is a great set up I would think assuming the core size is fit to your HP.

I could see keeping your current lay out and going to a 3" core if it flows enough CFM to support your current HP level.

911st 02-10-2010 09:40 AM

RUF C2 RCT w C2T intercooler.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265823580.jpg

copbait73 02-10-2010 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911st (Post 5177470)

Nice picture, it shows the "flowing" on the inlet much better.

Islander 02-10-2010 12:22 PM

Corky does great work.

WinRice 02-10-2010 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911st (Post 5177207)
Don, I to am wondering about your comment.

In my words your current core runs front to back. If you are saying a 3" side to side, I would not think you could get enough CFM through it.

I've been debating the same thing on my EFI setup. All the books show flow in the short direction, but is this optimum for a 930? High HP guys like Juan and Bello run side-to-side. Looks like you could get very nice intake air flow from the turbo, thru the IC and back to a Carrera intake with a side-to-side.

If we look at the cooling air through the IC, we may be missing an opportunity to get maximum cooling by a front-to-back IC, where the intake tank is located may be in the best cooling area of the engine and tail. An IC is only as good as the cooling air through it. When you look at the tail closed, you see a pretty big gap between the IC and the opening, towards the rear edge of the tail. This area is also located over the biggest open void in the engine compartment, that dumps straight into the engine fan, and would seem to offer the best flow through the IC.

Seems like the best airflow through the tail grille into the engine is the back half of the grill, and maybe the best place for the IC, which probably means a side-to-side.

This is all pure speculation, of course.;)

drmatera 02-10-2010 01:23 PM

If you took advantage of that rear area how would you close the lid?

WinRice 02-10-2010 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmatera (Post 5178015)
If you took advantage of that rear area how would you close the lid?

You couldn't get all the way to the back edge of the grill, but could get pretty close with my measurements.

A perfect solution would be the DP extended tail. :)

drmatera 02-10-2010 01:50 PM

yes, I had a DP on my '79. It allowed for a huge intercooler. Maybe if we remove the hood hinges and make it pin on, then you could hook it around the monster cooler and juggle it into place.

David 02-10-2010 04:42 PM

I don't see how you can flow enough through the side to side's to make the HP, but obviously Juan and Bello are doing it so I guess my math is off.

It really seems like it doesn't matter. Side to side, the air travels farther in the IC but the velocity is higher. Back to front, it doesn't go far but the velocity is low. It seems like the intake air spends about the same amount of time in either configuration.

Maybe someone who's spent too much time figuring on this can chime in :D

copbait73 02-10-2010 05:34 PM

For starters, the most efficient charge air cooler (CAC) has the most temperature drop while impacting pressure the least amount.

Side to side generally works best overall because at some distance past the entrance to the core most of the heat is removed and there is very little to be gained by traveling any further but something to be lost, pressure. This desired distance varies of course by how much heat is present in the gases at the entrance to the core.

Long(er) distance is needed if you have a killer HP turbo motor because the high boost introduces higher starting temperatures to the core, therefore a longer passage is needed to get the cooling accomplished.

My only comment regarding the two high HP subjects is that they are more properly sized for their intended use vs. many of the aftermarket CAC which frankly are oversized for the light duty most are exposed to pulling stoplight racer duty. But hey, if it wasn’t for the imposing size, how many guys would pay up to $2000 for something that only gives 20-30HP.


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