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"Assuming" that this is a "competitor" or a disgruntled employee" how can we explain the fact that the OEM Garrett Parts will fit and will work perfectly on the copy cats units ?

Even more disturbing is the fact that people are buying the copy cat Waste-gates then they purchase the Tial's exchange the internals and return the Tial's since the OME parts will fit on the copy cats............

I think copbait73 is right on the money with his statement

This product represents outright, in your face, theft of intellectual property and predatory pricing within our market. These fakes are misrepresented in the marketplace as Garrett products

We all know that I'm a huge Garrett fan, I put 11 of them on my car and never had one single issue so for me true or false is sad what's happening.

On top of all of that the Chinese suffer from a very poor ethical business relationship, they will start business with you and as soon as they can they will take your customers right in front of you.

Oh Yea, there was a certified Racing Suit same as Impact and Simpson which sells for $600.00 to $ 800.00 our price $ 80.00 same certification !! explain that to me !
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Old 02-26-2010, 04:13 AM
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All of the folks *****ING about the unions would be working for $5.00 per hour 16 hrs a day and loveing it if it wern't for your fathers and organizing and fighting for a decent wadge and working conditions if not for the unions in our country! Most of the ones *****ing have no Idea what you are talking about ,just repeating what the anti union folks say about unions. If you were to put tarriffs on finished products imported to our country that were high unough that it would not be profitable to make them in other countrys your jobs would return back to the USA. If it werent for the efforts and fighting that the unions have done in the last decades in our country we would all be working for peanuts!
Old 02-26-2010, 04:46 AM
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I bet anything that my 'Bosch' fuel pump that just screwed the pooch after only a year or so was Chinese made.... #$%^!
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:18 AM
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Paul,

As essentially an outsider who's 17 years working in the auto industry wasn't really working in the auto industry, and has never really experienced the auto industry other than hearsay and therefore has no valid opinion. I will default to what my father always told me "never attempt to have an intelligent debate with those who have closed minds."

YOU WIN I'M DONE !!!!!

Cole
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Last edited by cole930; 02-26-2010 at 06:07 AM..
Old 02-26-2010, 05:43 AM
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Bringing the discussion back to the original posting, Garrett/Honeywell turbos never had unions in their plants in the L.A. basin. When I started with them over 20 years ago their workforce was very diverse. Many were working mothers, many others probably second generation from the countries which eventually took their jobs. The pay scale was low by L.A. standards.

My perspective. Everyone who is trained, educated and wants to work should be able to find work in the US. If they can not our country has real problems. I think it's fair to expect our government to focus it's priorities to that goal. If that means canceling Work Visas issued in the good times, do it. If that means changing corporate tax structures, do it. My life has followed a path much like Cole's. I don't want some trickle down jobs incentive program and I don't want a handout, I want to work.
Old 02-26-2010, 06:53 AM
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I think what is going to happen in the auto industry is that we are going to to have another 1970's like era of crap quality (save for german entries...), and then people will get fed up with the crap and that will open the door for quality for a price products. I think that when enough of the China turbos blow up (they will, Ive had it happen to a few non-listening customers) and wipe out peoples motors, that they will go back to Precision, Garrett, Turbonetics etc.... Now about the knock off tial wastegates... NEVER BUY A CHINESE PRODUCT THAT HAS TO DEAL WITH HEAT!!! They can't take it- the Tial knock-offs are impressive in that they can replicate the appearance of the original, but they use inferior metals to replicate the parts. Every one of the Tial knock offs I have seen have failed under mild use. I mean failing 250 horsepower Civics, there are farts that are more abusive than that application. Now imagine trying to put that on a 5-6-700 horsepower car? no way. My point is: Reverse engineering is not engineering, it is simply taking measurements, plugging them into CAD, and spitting out a product. Tial has engineered these products to be made from top quality 321 stainless and other high quality metals and the tolerances are specific to the material used, when you plug a different metal in there it changes everything. Thats why those 250 horse civics turn into 400 horse civics for a few seconds before they spit a rod out the bottom, the inferior material and wrong tolerances hold the gate shut. America will not tolerate garbage forever, we will only take so much before we say enough is enough.

Oh yes: Tarrif the living $hit out of goods made in China (regardless of American derived or not), reverse NAFTA, and call it a day. We don't need anybody but ourselves and that is a fact As our country survived for years without anybody elses garbage. The government (left and right) sucks and they should be ousted for the fact that stand up companies like Tial are aloud to be ripped off by the Chinese and then aloud to be sold on our market with no regard for anything.
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Last edited by 930gt-40r; 02-26-2010 at 07:17 AM..
Old 02-26-2010, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 930gt-40r View Post
Re-subbed...
Oh yes: Tarrif the living $hit out of goods made in China (regardless of American derived or not), reverse NAFTA, and call it a day. We don't need anybody but ourselves and that is a fact As our country survived for years without anybody elses garbage. The government (left and right) sucks and they should be ousted for the fact that stand up companies like Tial are aloud to be ripped off by the Chinese and then aloud to be sold on our market with no regard for anything.
The sickness runs deeper. We are gutting our skilled labor pool as well as dismantling our industrial production capacity. We tell everyone now that they need a college education to be successful. How are we going to employ all of the "white collar" workers who are now "entitled" to earn white collar wages when there isn't a single "blue collar" worker supporting them? A service economy is a hollow shell. It is the "Emperor with no clothes". On top of that, even if we were to tariff the heck out of imports, OSHA, EPA, ADA, etc., and our wonderful legal system would make it impossible to rebuild our industrial capacity in any meaningful time frame.
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:32 AM
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Oh I know it runs deeper- trust me. Service based economy is b.s too- they are useless without an industrial base of sorts. If we drove out the countries with b.s cheap labor, we could build ourselves back up- industry is the only thing it will take and on a grand scale. I have faith in made in the U.S.A, but I do believe that people need to bring their expectations down a notch as far as wages are concerned. As a soon to be graduating student myself, I cant help but laugh at the kids who are going to "wait out the recesion" and get a master's degree. They think that they are going to get out and get paid 70K+ a year and it is sooo funny. I am a blue collar turning white collar and I understand that it takes more than a peice of paper to earn the big bucks, it takes performance. If it only took a peice of paper, than forget college, I have a whole roll of paper next to my toilet I could have presented.
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:42 AM
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I am hesitant to re enter the fray again but I've never been smart enough to stand idely by. Old has it's merits and the first is that by 67 you have made every mistake possible and, thankfully, you learn from most of them. Just a couple observation from the Old Guy.

I was brought up by wonderfull parents who taught me sound values; respect, accountability, honor, integrity, honesty, and responsibility and most importantly "There are no free rides" We all have a human obligation to ourselves, our families, our country, and our fellow man to be contributing members of our society. When a society becomes so self centered and me driven that we ignore that obligation then that society becomes a society of useless slugs with a mentality of entitlement and that society dies and those driving this train are taking us there at full speed.

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 02-26-2010 at 10:38 AM..
Old 02-26-2010, 10:36 AM
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I am hesitant to re enter the fray again but I've never been smart enough to stand idely by. Old has it's merits and the first is that by 67 you have made every mistake possible and, thankfully, you learn from most of them. Just a couple observation from the Old Guy.

I was brought up by wonderfully parents who taught me sound values respect, accountability, honor, integrity, honesty, and responsibility and most importantly "There are no free rides" We all have a human obligation to ourselves, our families, our country, and our fellow man to be contributing members of our society. When a society becomes so self centered and me driven that we ignore that obligation then that society becomes a society of useless slugs with a mentality of entitlement and that society dies and those driving this train are taking us there at full speed.

Cole
+1, only Im not 67
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:38 AM
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sjf911 hit the nail on the head. The powers at be do not want this nation to manufacture. They want you to stay in school for 20 years and intern and then work for the government. Get paid with grant money to study fruit flies and maggots (with a $180K a year paycheck) >the same person tells you that the "government agency forgave your school loan's as a signing bonus!!

I feel sorry for all the students that are in the engineering programs, there won't be anything to engineer.. You better pack your bags, and learn another language.. Because you will be moving across the globe to put your degree to work.

Everything is shipped offshore. From phone centers to raw material production. If the US had to supply a manufacturing revolution we only have 3 weeks of steel sitting. How many foundry and smelters do we have "ready" to recycle all the "cash for junkers" All that scrap steel is overseas right now..

Switzer the old BorgWarner and Garrett did NOT have Union workers. The top wages at Pre "911" was $13.XX for a CNC operation person. The Aerospace "westcoast" person was at $28.XX an hour. Assembly folks were paid less. It's a SHAME, these companies want to ring out the labor cost. When Garrett shipped the manufacturing across the border. I "seen" first hand friends stepping in to set up the assy lines, balancing stations. At that time people were laughing there $sses off>seeing bent tailshafts getting balanced in cartridges. Thousands of dollars of machined parts getting scrapped. The joke was on us.. All the US employees that went to help set the lines up were eventually in the unemployment line.

To be fair, it's not just Garrett.. It is every major company. The "blue" collar US worker is a thing of the past, like the corner "full service gas station".

Last edited by Zeroclearance; 02-26-2010 at 10:48 AM..
Old 02-26-2010, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeroclearance View Post
The powers at be do not want this nation to manufacture.
The next question is: what do we, as a country, do to turn this around?
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:58 AM
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What happens should we find ourselves in a "real" war aimed at the US? Will the Chinese make a tank for us or will they be the ones pointing the weapons our way? Oidiot wants to privatize NASA and missile defense so guess who will get all those contracts.

The middle east won the Gulf war, not with weapons but by simply jacking fuel to $4/gallon for 6 months. They simply flicked the right domino and the rest are still falling.

I have a pretty purple Chinese waste gate that I keep on my workbench as a symbol of the current state of affairs. It is made of pot metal and plastic and cost $35 on ebay. I cannot imagine it lasting 5 minutes on a lawn mower much less an actual car. I'm guessing this thing has never been anywhere near a QS9000 approved facility, ha!
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:20 PM
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We have people at very HIGH levels of government that want all of us to live in 50 story condo's and ride our bike to the local light rail system. Going to "work" doing "what" then repeat the process going home. Sit and watch CNBC, CNN, Cspan all night and go to bed..

I would like to see the vehicle registrations for all the "Green peace" and "Sierra Club" members.. The Benz, BMW and the Prius sitting in there driveway. Has anyone watched Whale Wars.. All the Diesel that they burnt and jet fuel in there Helicopter??? In the end you watched the Whalers GET there animals on board. One whale yieled a million dollars??

Has anyone noticed the Coal and Natural Gas TV ads lately?? Put everyone back to work building clean burn Modern Generation/Power stations. Heck we are the ONLY world power that isn't building new Nuclear plants. We have area's in this country that "IF" something happened it could get contained. We could build them BETTER than all the 3rd world countries which are having France and Russia getting the Billions from them..

Shut down OIL imports.. Build two HIGH SPEED train system from coast to coast North and South>>East and West... Double track, one for passenger one for Freight.. Get rid of interstate Diesel trucking and ship coast to coast with our new train system.. Powered by new nuclear plants or natural gas.. PUT PEOPLE back to work.. If you are on Food Stamps and don't have a job, GET one of these new jobs.. Build newer steel plants.. Bring manufacturing into the US. Mandate US purchases for our Military.. No more Airbus Tanker contracts. Tax goods thru the roof. Getting Toyota's built in the USA doesn't cut it. All the major parts are being shipped in containers.. Have the USA build the gearboxes, cast the brake rotors.. Bring the manufacturing back to the US...

BUT do we have the kids and 20 somethings to work a 8 hour shift, cleaning parts and deburring parts? You can't find anyone to deburr brand new CNC'd parts.

Force our Government into change or vote them out.. Bring a new party into government... I don't think the left or right is cutting it..
Old 02-26-2010, 12:23 PM
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My apologies everyone, I should had put this thread in the "Political Section"
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:26 PM
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The next question is: what do we, as a country, do to turn this around?
Vote them all out. Start over.
Old 02-26-2010, 01:49 PM
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I'm glad you posted this Juan. Folks need to know that what they think is good, quality, made in USA product might just be a lie. The origins of most products are hidden or blatantly misrepresented as a marketing ploy.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:56 PM
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Juan,

no apologies needed it's been a good vent for a lot of mutual overdue frustration.

Cole
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:00 PM
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Brian,

Actually all GM vehicles sold in North America are made in the USA, Canada, or
Mexico. Everything China makes primarily stays there. Those vehicles are models we never see, a lot of diesels and clown cars.
Mexico has 3 active plants and are of course the most profitable because of lower hourly wages and no legacy costs. Legacy costs for GM USA have made profits at US plants nearly zero. Of the $72.00 an hour $28.00 is wages, pension, health, layoff pools are the other $44.00. In other words a Mexican Truck costs 150% less to make because of the benefits the UAW gets not counting the hourly wage difference. So who causes the jobs go to Mexico.
If the government had let GM go tits up they would still be manufacturing vehicles just like they are today right here in the US but for a fraction of the cost because the Unions contracts would have gone out the window with the bankruptcy. Everyone is entitled to make a decent living and that's the way it should be but the greed and corruption that goes on is sinking our ship and we all better learn Chineese.

Cole
Whew! Just read your last two responses. True-to-form, you speak with not only strong conviction but with a deep knowledge base as well.
Don't get me started on the value of Unions in this country....they have long long long since outlived their original - and at the time probably necessary - intent. With benefit packages now hovering around 48% of a persons total salary (insurance, vacation, sick pay, etc.) we're all in a death spiral. We can't afford to pay for the work to be done in this country anymore, nor will people do the work that's "beneath" them. Thus, we outsource...
You used one of my favorite words: "Entitlement". It seems I deal with levels of that in my employees almost daily; it's like a sickness that we continue to feed with higher wages and lower work output. This is a wonderful country, but we Americans are so special and so centered on ourselves that we can't see the forest through the trees. It's all about me me me (sounds like I'm warming up for the opera).
It all makes me wonder what will be left when I'll be needing it in a few short years. As Paul once sang "will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm 64", I'm sure hoping our economy hasn't tanked 8 years from now when I'll be singing that song.
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:09 PM
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I "FEEL so dirty right now my lic plates lights are from China they are LED my new "lamp" for my 4k television is made in China and the list goes on and on................

On another note and this is going to REALLY make some of you mad........

I have travel the world on my job, in one of those journeys I landed in "Saipan" is about 26 hours away from Miami and about 4 hours to Philippines.

During my 3 week stay I made a lot of friends, one thing led to another and I went to this warehouse, it had to be the size of a football field, in there as far as you can see they had sewing machines with Chinese Lady's, 12 hour shifts 6 days a week 24 hrs, they were sewing pants, shirts etc.

Some of the brands that I recognized were Ralph Lauren and Lacose.

Because Saipan is in United States Territory ( waters) same as Puerto Rico, they are LEGALLY ALLOWED to stitch a label that reads MADE IN U.SA. !!!!

When you go to the store and you purchase that shirt that you think is made in USA think again Sean Combs makes is clothes in Honduras.
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:45 PM
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