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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Dave,

What you say about boost makes sense. Expecially if making 330hp.

Not sure about the muffler not exiting both sides but that is just guess to.

I read the early "S" HP kit used another turbo. Are you sure the SE turbo was the 7006? It dose feel right except I would think but that might put it at a higher HP than 330hp even with stock boost.
Trust me, I know. I have the 330BHP engine in my car. The turbo is a specially modified K-27 7006 and the exhaust is what I had when I purchased the car. (shown below) The 330BHP were conservatively rated at 330....350-360 would have been more accurate.

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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 03-08-2010, 08:34 AM
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I said:"Thinking the SE intercooler and muffler are basically the same as what RUF was using. Both probably sourced from Porsche OEM manufactures."

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
Don't confuse anything Ruf was using with what Zuffenhausen was doing. Ruf was doing things outside of what Zuffenhausen was designing. Ruf was working with Mahle, KKK, Bosch and camshaft manufacturers, to name a few, enhancing the drivetrain.
I think we are saying the same thing?

It is just a guess but I suspect the OEM's developed the intercooler and exhaust at RUF and or Porsche's input. RUF picked them up first for there BTR conversions. Then later Porsche picked them up for there special run of SE's.
Old 03-08-2010, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
Trust me, I know. I have the 330BHP engine in my car. The turbo is a specially modified K-27 7006 and the exhaust is what I had when I purchased the car. (shown below) The 330BHP were conservatively rated at 330....350-360 would have been more accurate.
Way cool.

It kind of looks like Porsche may have had an early 330hp motor that used the stock IC and later the SE version.

Your comments about the HP being more like 360 makes sense.

Did your car come with the SE intercooler? Do you still have it?

Can you confirm the SE muffler only exited the passenger side and only the wast gate the drivers side (like the C2 turbos). This would be different from the RUF unit.

Also, you are now saying the K27-7006 was "specially modified" by KKK or Porsche in some way to make it different from a normal 7006. How is this or what did they do or how did you come by this detail?

I am very interested.l

Last edited by 911st; 03-08-2010 at 09:13 AM..
Old 03-08-2010, 09:09 AM
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The "SE" intercooler wasn't conceived yet. My car is an '85, a couple of years before Porsche produced the better IC.

The nothing really that special about the K-27 7006 other than a special fixture added to the outlet so that the downpipe to the IC would slip on using the standard viton o-rings.

The muffler looked like the standard 930 muffler except the right side cap was redesigned to accept the exhaust coming the right. I suspect there may have been an internal baffle change, but I wasn't about to find that out.

Pic from engine teardown.

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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 03-08-2010, 09:28 AM
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965 I/C for comparison.

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Old 03-11-2010, 07:45 AM
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Mystery Factory Intercooler

Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
That car has the look of an SE: Euro bumper/lights with exposed air bipass valve, larger OEM intercooler and 4 tailpipe muffler. I've seen grainy old photos of these but never a modern digital picture.
Whos car is this?
Brian, I totally missed this thread as I was in the hospital when it posted. The car in question is my 1986 930SE with the factory "increased performance" engine option which among other things included the larger factory intercooler as seen in the photograph.

additional info on the car:
1986 Porsche Slant Nose Turbo with only 2,500 miles Porschebahn Weblog

I have additional photos to add for those interested including the label (unfortunately out of focus) but the label appears to be the same manufacturer as on the stock factory cooler as seen in Dave's (kycarguy) Turbo. Note the date from the factory grease pencil on the rubber intercooler shroud is July 2, 1985.
Hope this sheds a bit more light on the "mystery" intercooler.
Bill (bluebox88)









Old 03-24-2010, 11:49 AM
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Hope you are okay Bill.

Thanks for posting the pics.
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:03 PM
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Hello bluebox,

any chance to see this label in better quality?


thanks
Falk
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:29 AM
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Here is a better picture of the L&R label--taken from a '79 930. It is not from Bill's car, but his is also clearly the Langerer & Reich brand which was OEM on 930s.

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Old 03-25-2010, 09:46 AM
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To be clear the second label seems to be from a standard 930.

I think we are after the part numbers for the later 'S' or SE intercooler.

Anyone have the ability to check with the factory or Porsche to see if these can be sourced???
Old 03-25-2010, 12:54 PM
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930-S. I did a motor job on a 1983 Slant with one a long time ago. As I recall, that car went back to the factory for the slant conversion and initial engine upgrades (K27-7006 11/11, intercooler, fueler, 4-pipe muffler).
There is a different number for the 930-S pistons, but this had plain 3.3L P&Cs.

Have lots of pics of the IC with its related 930-S install bits, here's few:

Unique charge pipe, boost gauge sending unit mounted in outlet neck




Did contact the wing slightly, needed clearance and re-painting




Factory notched airbox, vacuum limiter (decel valve) moved out from under IC




Extended fresh air inlet pipe, similar stud & spacer sleeve on manifold. No diverter valve originally (I added C2T parts)




Interesting fueler:
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:01 PM
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Chris,

Killer stuff! Outstanding clues!!!


OK, I am convinced this was basically lifted from the RUF BTR program seeing the notched air cleaner. The IC looks the same minis the fins on the IC.

Cris -- I am very interested in your thoughts on the fueler piece. I saw that RUF had something like that.

How do you think it was hooked up and or works? I wonder if this is how the Group B's extended there fueling agility past 400hp?

Is it basically a pressure regulator that reduces control pressure with higher boost pressure? If so, this is an elegant solution and a lot simpler than the Andial / AMG Frequency Valve / control pressure based fueler and looks to be adjustable.


Last edited by 911st; 03-25-2010 at 02:05 PM..
Old 03-25-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post

Wonder if we can find a way to get these?

Last edited by 911st; 03-25-2010 at 02:03 PM..
Old 03-25-2010, 01:54 PM
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Sent a picture of this to Larry and CIS Fuel Tec that dose the Higher Flow fuel distribuitors (fuel heads).

He thinks it might be a dampener but will look at it.

CISFLOWTECH
Old 03-25-2010, 02:02 PM
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I can try to contact that client and get the car in, read a part number if you're really interested. He travels a lot, could be a while.

That fueler was non-adjustable. Simple vacuum/pressure diaphragm like a FPR. The lines were crude, like a hand-made part (and probably such small production numbers that it was hand-made.)
I think this is similar to what Lee Rice was doing?

That Andial unit was simple but quite effective for the engines they were doing (3.4L or 3.5L, mild porting, SC cams, Euro heat exchangers, Monty muffler, Garrettson intercooler).

Really don't know if the WUR was stock, either.
Didn't pay that much attention at the time -- I really wanted to convert it all to EFI and really uncork it! A gorgeous red/tan slant with wide 18" dark gold/bronze K28 wheels, sport seats, all-leather interior, 3.4L MM P&Cs, ported heads & manifold & billet blocks, BB headers, lightweight clutch package.

Who copied who... Ruf or Porsche, Porsche or Ruf? Who knows, they're a stone's throw from one another. I'm sure ideas got passed back-and-forth, like it or not. A technician may have started at Porsche and gone to Ruf, or vice versa. Or Langerer & Reich, the IC supplier, may have shared some design and tooling? Dunno. Either way, it's a fairly rare intercooler and worked well. This thing made 370rwhp/370rwtq @ 0.8bar on 91-octane and was fun to drive.
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:57 PM
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Chris,

Thank's for the quick reply.

The Lee Rice's fueler was mostly based on converting the WUR to Vacunm Sensing (like the 3.0 Turbo's) and setting it at a lower on boost control pressure setting. He did fit a dampener on his set ups to protect the FD diphragm's as some years could rupture.

Thus, Larry at CIS Flow Tech might be right about this possibly just being a dampener as the Rice Fueler's dampener did look similar to this. Or Lee Rice was not telling the whole story about the dampener. I was always suspect.

In any event the lines to the unit on you client's car sure look factory from the pic. Further, I did also see a conversion kit once on Ebay in RUF packaging that had something like this on it.

I wish others would discover the opportunity for better throttle response with the vacuum sensing style WUR.

Still, I have often wondered how RUF could make the HP he did out of the CIS motors with the dial-a-death adjustable boost knob and support the AFR's. Same with the Group B, DP, and Kremer cars. Most making up to 480hp at 1.2 bar.

If you ever learn anything more about this unit or how they could support such HP please do let us know.

I know Volvo on its CIS Group B cars bumped the system pressure a bunch, fitted larger injectors, and had custom metering cone's to support race level HP.

Thank's.

Last edited by 911st; 03-25-2010 at 06:25 PM..
Old 03-25-2010, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falk930 View Post
Hello bluebox,

any chance to see this label in better quality?


thanks
Falk
Falk-
Unfortunately I don't have immediate access to the car and I'm temporarily grounded while recovering from surgery. I'll see if I can obtain a better photo of the label at the first opportunity and post to this thread.

TurboKraft-
Your comment about the need for additional wing clearance is accurate. All the cars (including mine) that I observed in Zuffenhausen with the optional engine required that the opening under the spoiler be enlarged slightly at the left rear to clear the corner of the larger intercooler. Note in the picture below where the black paint paint is scraped on the corner of the IC where the lid would drag slightly when opening and closing. In my case this only happens when the engine is at operating temperature, no touching at all with a cold motor. I preferred to tolerate this minor inconvenience rather than take a file to the lid or IC. No doubt that additional room is made at Werke1 to accommodate the larger intercooler.



Old 03-25-2010, 06:44 PM
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Chris,

According to Larry at CIS Flowtech, it is a dampener. A better discretion would be to call it an accumulator. It's function is to maintain or reestablish control pressure and system pressure in the Fuel Distributor with throttle lift under high demand.

Apparently when the throttle is quickly closed at high rpm-full boost it can take a sec for control pressure and system pressure to come back.

This may help reduce fuel delivery on throttle lift.

The nipple that connects to the manifold is in case the dampener should leak.

Apparently if say system pressure is something like 7 bar at idle. It might be 5.5 bar at WOT- high rpm. With throttle lift when the metering pin quickly moves up, system pressure and control pressure might drop to something like 4 bar for a sec and the lowered control pressure slows the metering pin from closing up as quickly.

This is just a guess on my part but if this is all as it seems, there might be more fuel available if we can stabilize system pressure at WOT with higher spec fuel pumps. Thierry seemed to find this to be the case on his C2 turbo. He found that shimming for more system pressure did not give him more WOT fuel. He upgraded to a 049 fuel pump and picked up more fuel up top.

Way fun stuff!!!


Last edited by 911st; 03-28-2010 at 02:10 PM..
Old 03-28-2010, 02:06 PM
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Parts & numbers are listed in the PET program (workshop manual) for ROW-spec models. It's everything with the M148 option code, "Engine with Increased Efficiency 930.66."




They call it a "diaphragm damper" and MSRP is $137, still available. Fuel lines are $130 and $166, also showing still available.

I'm usually a picture freak with 100+ shots of an engine as it comes down and apart, but I don't have a picture of whether or not there's a vacuum line attached to the damper, and if so where it attaches (above or below throttle body).
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:21 AM
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Chris,

I guess that confirms it then. For it to have been a "fuel'r" it would have add to bled pressure off the control pressure connection at the head and around the WUR like the Andial fuel'r dose. If it added restriction to that line it would increase CP and lean the motor as fuel bleeds CP out of the top of the FD.

It would be interesting to build a mechanical fuelrr that works off boost pressure, is adjustable, and works on the same principle as the Andial without the electronics.

BTY, The CIS Ferrari uses a dampener I understand.

As to the nipple off the back of the dampener/accumulator, Larry just said it vents to the intake manifold. I would think you would not want it to be subject to Vac or Boost so just leaving it to atmosphere, adding a tube or catch can should it leak, or maybe venting to the air cleaner might be ok. We just do not want it to dump fuel on a hot motor and it probably has to remain unrestricted.
Old 03-29-2010, 09:55 AM
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