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zaidigonzo's Avatar
 
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I dont have a yellow relay in the back, couple of silver box ones and a round red one. My front fuse box is in the pics. The fuse for the pump is the one hanging out with its own plastic encasing. Its good.
Dont know what you mean about jumping a wire from one to another?
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 07:41 AM
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I have to admit now that i'm out of ideas. Something is stopping power to your pumps, i'm sure someone will tell what to check next. Can you disconnect the boost sensor at the intercooler?
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 03-19-2010, 07:58 AM
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Il try the boost sensor disconnect. I really do appreciate the input though. Learning a lot. Is that boost sensor the orange looking nipple thing?
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 08:15 AM
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beancounter
 
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Get out your multimeter dude...

start following the 12v to your pumps. That red relay in the engine compartment must be your overboost relay. My '79 is like that too. I think it was not until the later cars that they used the "special" yellow relay. I agree to check your overboost sensor too. Make sure its connected. You upgraded the intercooler too right? If the overboost sensor has been moved from the factory bypass/recirc valve to the I/C, you may need to add a ground wire from the I/C to the engine somewhere. The overboost sensor grounds through the hole it screws into and inf the I/C is electrically isolated from the ground, your overboost sensor wont ground and pumps won't run.
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Current: 1983 911 GT4 Race Car / 1999 Spec Miata / 2000 MB SL500 / 1998 MB E300TD / 1998 BMW R1100RT / 2016 KTM Duke 690
Past: 2009 997 Turbo Cab / 1979 930
Old 03-19-2010, 08:16 AM
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Not sure from the photos but it looks as if your B&B IC is a short neck and retains the factory recirc/bypass assembly. If so, the overboost sensor is on the backside of that assembly on the left hand side of the engine compartment. The wire going to it is usually white.
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Past: 2009 997 Turbo Cab / 1979 930
Old 03-19-2010, 08:24 AM
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yup. its a short neck and retains the air recirc. there is a wire connected to it on drivers side behind ic.
all i have found so far is no 12 volt power to the last fuse on the bottom of the 3 fuses in the engine bay. But dont know if it just never has had any power or if its related to this
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 09:00 AM
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Did you check for continuity between the overboost sensor (spade where the wire attaches) and ground. If no continuity if found with a multimeter, it would indicate the sensor has failed. You could also ground the white wire against the engine block and see if that gets the pumps running.
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Jacob
Current: 1983 911 GT4 Race Car / 1999 Spec Miata / 2000 MB SL500 / 1998 MB E300TD / 1998 BMW R1100RT / 2016 KTM Duke 690
Past: 2009 997 Turbo Cab / 1979 930
Old 03-19-2010, 09:38 AM
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GOT PUMPS WORKING!! Both!
but no starting yet

the fuel pump fuse was not making contact in that separate plastic casing it was in. Still pumps running but no sign of even trying to ignite, just turns over..........
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 09:40 AM
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kept trying and it started and idled for a minute normally. EXCEPT no rpms registering on gauge??????????Afrs were around 12.5 on gauge
then it abruptly shutoff. Fuel pumps running still,
No start again but fuel pumps heard.
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 09:47 AM
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How bizarre.... When you say no RPM's registering, do you mean on the rev counter, or in your DigiWUR software? I would check your wiring for the Digi unit, maybe you're accidentally grounding the spark from the coil somehow?
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 03-19-2010, 10:04 AM
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Sorry for jumping in so late. So now, you've got the pumps running....the car actually started and ran for a minute, then abruptly shut down BUT THE PUMPS ARE STILL RUNNING and you can't get her to start back up. Correct?

I guess now the focus returns to ignition issues. In one of the pictures that you sent (see below)



see the smaller of the two rectangluar "boxes" on the relay tray. That should be your ignition shut off delay which is intended to keep ignition spark active for a couple seconds after you turn the key off, in order to burn residual fuel from the lines. If that relay were to malfunction, convceivably it would interrupt power to the CDI. Just a thought...I haven't heard of anyone experiencing starting issues when that relay goes south, just that it stops doing the delay thing. But who knows? Pull it out, clean the contacts anyway.

If you've ruled out CDI/coil/distrubutor and are confident all ignition related components are working, then it must be an intermittent power interuption somewhere.

What PITA these cars can be. Just this moring on the way to work, mine gave me a split-second hiccup (as in pumps shut down feeling, a wanna-be face in the dash syndrome). 60 mph steady throttle, no boost, just cruising...hiccup. $hit. Paranoia strikes deep, into our hearts it will creep...shades of Buffalo Springfield.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.

Last edited by mark houghton; 03-19-2010 at 10:34 AM..
Old 03-19-2010, 10:24 AM
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There is a 4th relay in the fuel pump circuit...

I havn't read all the posts in this thread but I recently dicovered there is a 4th relay never mentioned anywhere before in the 1987 930 fuel pump wiring circuit that has to be working correctly or the pumps don't run... in my car anyway.

It is the aluminum colored "speed relay" under the driver seat. It is the factory rev limiter and 4 of the many wires going to it have to plugged in to it and making good contact or the pumps shut off.

Under the driver seat on the floor over on the left side is this aluminum color clear anodized "speed relay".
The part# is 930.618.123.00 and it's $314.25 from pelican.

To the right of it is a black plastic "fuel enrichment" relay that adjusts the lambda pulse valve to a higher frequency which richens the fuel mixture around full throttle on 1986 and later lambda equipped USA cars.
Then to the right of that is the larger K-jetronic ECU box.

I have had an intemittent problem with the fuel pumps shutting off randomly in my car since I bought it.
I've jumped both red relays in the front and the yellow relay in the rear and they still wouldn't run and then they'd just come back on when they feel like it. I also pulled 12" of the black tape off the rear wire harness under the relay console and then retaped them all looking for burned wires... very frustrating.
I finally wired in a toggle switch that bypassed both red fuel pump relays and gave both pumps 12 fused volts directly from the battery for if and when that happened so i wouldn't need a tow truck.

So last weekend I'm removing ALL the heavy factory sound proofing from inside my car and while the driver seat is out I started experimenting with removing the plugs and then individual wires from those relays under the seat while the ignition is on and the pumps are running and also while the motor is running to try and figure out what they do.

I thought the speed relay only cut out the ignition around 7200 rpm but it's also tied into the fuel pump circuit. If you remove either of the 2 white wires, or the red wire, or the brown ground wire from this speed relay the fuel pumps shut off.

I accidentally found that if I tapped this relay while the pumps were running my fuel pumps would shut off or come back on intermittently... great.

I removed the relay and bent the edges of the aluminum cover back along the bottom and took the aluminum cover off it and there are 2 small mini relays and some circuit boards inside and they were all clean and working fine.

It turned out that the male pins on the relay were not making good electrical contact with the female pins in the plug.
After gently scraping and cleanng the round male pins on the speed relay with the edge of a knife blade and scotch brite pad it worked perfectly again and the pumps keep running when moving or tapping on the speed relay so it seems that was the problem even though the pins looked clean.

As far as I know, no one has mentioned this relay for fuel pump problems before so reach under the seat and try moving the plug on the aluminum color relay while the ignition is on and the green plug is removed from the air flow meter...maybe the pumps will come on?

This multi pin plug is the type that is used in several other areas on the car and can be taken apart to resolder wires to the pins and it fits on the relay pretty tight.

hope this helps.
Old 03-19-2010, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
I havn't read all the posts in this thread but I recently dicovered there is a 4th relay never mentioned anywhere before in the 1987 930 fuel pump wiring circuit that has to be working correctly or the pumps don't run... in my car anyway..
And I just had that thing out a couple weeks ago to disconnect my old Andial fuel enrichment module! Great discovery Jim, I'll be checking it out myself.
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 03-19-2010, 10:32 AM
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Zaidi,

You guy's are driving me nuts !!!!

It appears to be a fuel problem but you also do not know for sure.

1. It's either no spark or no fuel. Eliminate no spark first. Pull the coil wire, hold it 1/2 inch from the mounting bracket, have someone crank the car and verify you have spark. CDI box humming is not a positive indication that the box is good.
Once you have varified you have spark, THEN, start checking fuel.

2. You car is an 84 so it is a ROW car and it does not have a yellow relay in the back or the small relay under the seat.

3. The rear fuse panel has 3 fuse holders, none of them have anything to do with the fuel system.

4. The rear fuse panel should have 1 red relay that is the air flow/ charge sensor relay

5. The front relay panel has 2 fuel pump relays and are the first 2 relays (red) on the end of the relay panel closest to the windshield. The first is
Fuel pump 2 and it powers the rear fuel pump and provides the 12vdc for the warm up regulator. The second red relay is for the front fuel pump.

6. In the front fuse box fuse number 16 is the 25 amp fuel pump fuse it is the
6th fuse in from the windshield side. Take the fuse out , clean the tips with a file or sandpaper, clean the holder, and pull the wires off and clean them. Replace
the fuse , turn the ignition and check for voltage.

7. Pull the first red fuel pump relay, turn it over and brush the pins to clean them and then insert a thin feeler gauge blade in the split of each pin to slightly spread the pins open to assure a good connection. Do this on both relays. Do not use black relays use only red. Once the relays, fuse, connections, and fuse holder are cleaned and reinstalled turn the ignition to the second position and go to the engine compartment and pull the wires off the grey connector on the fuel distributor. The fuel pumps should run.

8. If the fuel pumps did not run turn off the ignition and remove the first red relay, turn it over and read the numbers next to the pins. Find pin 30 and pin 87
Then looking at the rubber relay socket locate the socket holes for pin 30 and pin 87. Check the voltage between the pin 30 socket hole and ground for 12vdc ignition neede to be on 2nd position the get voltage. . Cut a short peice of wire and strip each end about 1/4 inch bend the wire into a U and insert one end into rubber socket hole 30 and one into socket hole 87 turn the ignition to the 2nd position, the rear pump shoudl run. ( That tells you the rear fuel pump is good ) Repeat this for the second fuel pump relay )

9. Post the results of these instructions.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-19-2010 at 10:58 AM..
Old 03-19-2010, 10:43 AM
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He's got the pumps running now, the next step is finding out why it runs and then stops... With the pumps still running! It's either an ignition issue or a fault with his digi WUR
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 03-19-2010, 10:47 AM
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cool! thanks to all.
Car now starts and idles although not as before......Its a little rougher and it kind of stumbles as it "runs on" after ignition is off. Not able to communicate with the laptop to the DWUR.....dont know why
no rpms registering on the tach either. This rpm problem happened before but it "magically" went away and I kept the white wire of the DWUR connected to + on coil.
I cant drive it since I cant communicate with the DWUR and am afraid of that sudden shutoff it did twice in the last 4 times Ive run it this am in the garage
FUEL PUMPS on the other hand are running good!
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 10:51 AM
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If your tach isn't working, and it's running badly, your alternator may be shot. There's a little diode in there that goes bad, which plays havoc with the tach. Try running the car and testing the power to the battery, should be 14ish Volts
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 03-19-2010, 11:01 AM
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Might take a quick look at a spark plug they may be fuel fowled by now.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 03-19-2010, 11:06 AM
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Thanks guys! Wow, I really didnt think I could get this thing to start again. Couldnt do anything without this board and all the great people in it. I got some driver updates and the computer now communicates with the DWUR. DWUR can read the rpms but my tach still not moving at all... Hey, Is there a fuse for that?!! LOL
Now I have to read on how to adjust the DWUR to get AFRs closer to ideal.

Also, if I am able to adjust this thing and I give it a good run, wouldnt the plugs "clean" themselves??? Just wondering
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1984 ROW 930 turbo with rarly8 exhaust, waste gate pipe and HEADERS
K27HFS TURBO, B&B IC, 1 bar spring,LEASK WUR with rpm solenoid, fab speed intake filter, front strut brace rennline. MOMO wheel, Innovative afr 16-1 gauge, custom 930 ELGIN cam
Old 03-19-2010, 11:44 AM
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Spark plugs will probably clear themselves but if you got a bit of a misfire, you know what to check first.

Regarding JFairman's excellent comments...I remember cruising around on the Permatune ignition website years ago and they said that the speed relay located under the seat had very sophisticated electronics and definitely can cause a no-start. Other than that tidbit, I never read much about this device before. Thanks to JFairman.
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:36 PM
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