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Forced Induction Junkie
 
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My neck got stiff trying to read the above graph, so I rotated it 90*.

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Old 04-23-2010, 05:10 AM
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Good move Dave!!!


Mostly good info here.

It is interesting to see him making more HP than TQ with a stock cams. This raises a question as that is not typical of stock cams or even SC cams in many cases.

Looks like full boost is being had at about 3600rpm. A properly set up K27-7200 can get there by about 3000-3200rpm.

As noted it is trade offs in the following area's.

1000-2300rpm Idle to where the turbo is making power. (cams, timing, more compression, twin plugs, displacement).

3000-3800rpm where full boost is obtained. (turbo size and configuration mostly)

4000-5500 meat of the power band and where all cams work well.

5500-red-line, where the big HP lives. (turbo efficiency, cams, sufficient AFR, breathing)

Most turbos and cams are going to do about the same in the 4000-5500rpm range. It is the area's before and after that can be effected significantly with other choices. Even the stock cams and ports can probably do within 10hp in that area. Increasing efficiency will help most in this area, better intercooler, higher boost, bigger motor, more ideal AFR and timing.

Thus, assuming all the basic goods like boost, intercooler, headers -- the basic trade for most is a fuller 2000 - 4000rpm range or big HP(+30 to a lot more) in the 5000-7000rpm range.

In my case I had an extreme build 3.3 CIS turbo. I gave up that big rush or pull past 5500rpm and about 30-50hp -- for boost that came in hard and was full in by 3000rpm but going from a K29 and then an early HF back to a K27-7200.

Do note that after about 350rwhp the K27-7200 is moving out of its efficiency island and it starting to heat the intake are more than a larger turbo. Have not seen many get to 400rwhp and I could not push it past about 375rwhp with ports, headers, cams, and large intercooler.

Last edited by 911st; 04-23-2010 at 07:11 AM..
Old 04-23-2010, 06:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
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I think if I were to build a street turbo today I would probably go after a K27-7200 & Brian's equal length headers, before a big turbo, ports, and cams.

I have even heard of one PCA racer with a 91 C2 Turbo that re-timed the stock 930 cams for more low end.

Then I would then spend effort on optimizing the AFR & ignition on a dyno.

Just my opinion and what I believe so far.

Fun!

Last edited by 911st; 04-23-2010 at 07:14 AM..
Old 04-23-2010, 07:09 AM
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Do you know for fact that the stock cams are still in your motor?

If I had to guess, I'd doubt it with that horsepower curve. I've used a high backpressure HFS and it's makes more heat than horsepower on a stock or near stock motor.

There is no way of knowing for sure what cams are in there until you remove them.
Old 04-23-2010, 07:45 AM
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Z.

I'm going to digress here so I don't confuse you and /or others with
differing opinions. I'm really old and I have made nearly every mistake that is humanly possible. Consequently, I have learned a lot from my mistakes and now try to apply what I have learned. I am not a Porsche mechanic or anything other than an avid , long time (50 + year) Porsche fanatic who has had a lot of these cars and I do all my own work.

First determine what you want based on how you are going to use the car
and how much money you have available to get you there. My ideal is to tape a blank check on my dash and send the car to Chris Carroll at TufboKraft or Bob Holcumb at MODE with a note that says " build me the fastest street 930 on the planet " Reality check " It ain't ever going to happen "

Plan B: Knowing that my Chris Carroll/ Bob Holcomb money is all going to Mayo Clinic for the co-pay on $732,000 of Heat and Cancer operations I was forced to get real with my plan. I came to the realization that every pipe dream, unfinished Porsche project out there is there because someone ran out of money because they didn't have a plan before they started. I've been through the, buy the cool **** everyone talks about on the forums not knowing if you really need it, if it really works, or how much other cool **** you have to buy to make it work. The only saving grace with that is the PP classifieds because you can sell it when you realize you don't really need it or it's not the right thing to use. Know what you need before you buy anything and to do that you have to know what you are trying to accomplish.

Plan C: I was fortunate, ah!!! maybe not so fortunate, to have a lot of time
recuperating after 9 operations and sitting 7-8 hours in chemo for six months. I
spent my time reading everything I could too determine what I wanted, what was practical, what was not, and what I could afford. I finally setteled on a street only 930 based on a stock short block that was as fast as possible, as safe as possible, as reliable as possible, and at a cost I could afford. That seems simple but fast, safe, and reliable don't necessarily go together easily and affordable is the toughest. I made a comprehensive list of every component I needed as well as the brand and cost of each. So far I'm sticking to the plan. I'm 12% over budget due to upgrades on the originally purchased Ignition and the BOV. I still have some things I will be selling eventually, so all in all I'm doing pretty well.

If you have a good solid motor to start with you can easily reach 375- 400 HP without having to split the case. The most agressive mod needed would be a cam change or upgrade. Virtually everything else required is bolt on. Remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you add a better turbo you need a bigger intercooler and good afr control.To get good afr's you need the fuel system to be right on and a DWUR or BL WUR is required. With more power you need better exhaust. At this point if you look right in front of you, you will see that slippery slope everyone talks about.

I apologize for getting off on a rant here but felt it might be good information for others. If anyone takes anything away from this let it be the lesson of the old bull and the young bull.

An old bull and a young bull were grazing on top a hill. The young bull looked down in the valley and saw a herd of cows. The young bull turned to the old bull and said " let's run down there and f--- one of those cows" the old bull slowly turned to the young bull and said " let's walk down and f--- them all" Take your time, don't hurry, and do it right.


Cole
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Last edited by cole930; 04-28-2010 at 08:41 AM..
Old 04-23-2010, 07:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
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Good answer Cole!
Old 04-23-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Do note that after about 350rwhp the K27-7200 is moving out of its efficiency island and it starting to heat the intake are more than a larger turbo. Have not seen many get to 400rwhp and I could not push it past about 375rwhp with ports, headers, cams, and large intercooler.
That's the same as our experience on a Dynapack chassis dyno and a conservative engine dyno at MODE (Bob Holcombe, Motorsport Design).
Best repeatable numbers on a 3.4L Euro 930 with a K27-7006 was 455hp on MODE's dyno. Raise the boost and the same numbers hit at a lower rpm, not more gains up top.
To the wheels on the Dynapack, similar 930s with K27-7200s top off around 375hp.

Responsive with stock cams or mild cams like SC. Lots of fun on the street.
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:21 AM
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Thanks. Good bull story. I dont know if the cams r stock! Everything externally was stock when i bought it except some pushrod tubes that looked relatively new. Im actually happy with where the car is at now. Just had small cam cover leak and exhaust leak so i thought while im there i would do cam upgrade but seeing the dyno, i dont know that it " needs" one. Id rather spend that $ to get get better tuning of afrs and msd plus fusch 18 zuffenhaus wheels!!!
Old 04-23-2010, 09:24 AM
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Z,

Your dyno numbers are very impressive and I have a tendency to agree with Jim. I wouldn't doubt but what the cams have been changed. Your going to have the chain box cover off to fix the leak so take a look at the very end of the cam shaft and see if you can get a number off it. That might tell you a lot. You can decide where you want to go from there.

Cole
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Last edited by cole930; 04-23-2010 at 06:45 PM..
Old 04-23-2010, 09:45 AM
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You need a sexy cam in order to chase down and f--- the bulls. Oh hell, there I go again....

Cole, good sage advice. Always start with the end in mind and plan accordingly. One of these day's I'll finish my plan by installing those SC330's that Jim threw my way.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:26 AM
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How do you know the cam tower seal to the cylinder heads are leaking?

You would have to know exactly where to look, clean all the oil and dirt off and lay under the car looking up at the right areas while hot air is blowing down on you with the engine running for a while until you see new oil leaking out to determine that, and that said do you know how to tell by looking if it's a rocker shaft leaking oil or the cam tower seal? It can be decieving.

It could be a common rocker shaft oil leak or even a valve cover gasket leaking. Air currents under the car move oil sweat and seepage all over the place on the bottom edge of the cam towers while driving.

If you remove the scavenge pump and air pump pulley you can see the end of the driver side cam.
If it's been reground or it's a custom grind there are usually numbers and a date stamped or engraved on the end of the cam and you should be able to see it with a flashlight.
For example: if you see the number 40 on the end and a date that it was ground, thats Webcams 964 profile.
Old 04-23-2010, 10:39 AM
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I just found out that my car has web cams 158 profile. At least that is what is stamped on the cam end.
On their site it is listed as a off road cam for carbureted engines. I was told when I bought the car it had SC cams. Anyone heard of or using this profile? I haven't been a car with SC cams so I can't compare them.
Old 04-23-2010, 09:28 PM
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Chris,

That is a really cool data point!

It is interesting that bassically going with a larger hot side alows for almost another 80 hp as the compressor sides do not seem to be that much different in capacaty.

If the hot side is so restrictive on a K27-7200 why dose it make sense to add an even bigger compressor wheel to it???

Could someone come up with a CNC programe to increase the AR of the 7200 hot side or is it mostly a need for a larger turbine wheel that gets the extra power?

I still have lots to learn.

Thx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
That's the same as our experience on a Dynapack chassis dyno and a conservative engine dyno at MODE (Bob Holcombe, Motorsport Design).
Best repeatable numbers on a 3.4L Euro 930 with a K27-7006 was 455hp on MODE's dyno. Raise the boost and the same numbers hit at a lower rpm, not more gains up top.
To the wheels on the Dynapack, similar 930s with K27-7200s top off around 375hp.

Responsive with stock cams or mild cams like SC. Lots of fun on the street.
Old 04-27-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
...I have a tendency to agree with Jim. I wouldn't doubt but what the cams have been changed... Cole
What about my pat on the back!

Post #22:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
...
It is interesting to see him making more HP than TQ with a stock cams. This raises a question as that is not typical of stock cams or even SC cams in many cases.
...
The good looking guy's with the fast cars alwas get all the credit.

Old 04-27-2010, 09:01 AM
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Keith,

I do in fact apologize. I jumped in there late and did not see your comment.
Again you prove.... Great Minds !!!!

Cole
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:20 AM
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Your leaky headers are killing you more than anything. Look up the latesg post on the thread in this forum "Latest Project - RarlyL8 Headers". A basically stock 930 w/ HFS turbo made 400HP on the dyno using Bryan's headers and the boost threshhold came down 1500 RPM. That should cover all of your bases.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Your leaky headers are killing you more than anything. Look up the latesg post on the thread in this forum "Latest Project - RarlyL8 Headers". A basically stock 930 w/ HFS turbo made 400HP on the dyno using Bryan's headers and the boost threshhold came down 1500 RPM. That should cover all of your bases.
I know I'm gonna get flamed and hated for this, but I call BS to this one. A stock 930, that puts out ~275 rwhp (maybe), gets a new turbo and header and we're told it accounts for approx 125hp gain?

I guess I should ask at what boost?
Old 04-27-2010, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Your leaky headers are killing you more than anything. Look up the latesg post on the thread in this forum "Latest Project - RarlyL8 Headers". A basically stock 930 w/ HFS turbo made 400HP on the dyno using Bryan's headers and the boost threshhold came down 1500 RPM. That should cover all of your bases.
Went back an looked and that is not what I could see he said that nor were there dyno plots from before and after provided. 1500rpm was not mentioned.

C2 cams, big turbo, 'mabye stock ports', and undisclosed actual boost level. Nothing else is really known.

Comparsion was against shorties with 'unknow aftermarket muffler' and the equal length headers & Zork.

I once replaced my early B&B style muffler with a Borla straight through and picked up 30whp on the dyno.


Still, anything that effects the pressure on eather side of the turbo's turbine should have an expence. With a small hole is will probably be in boost threshold unless it is so large the WG dose not open. If the WG opens it probably is not hurting HP. Just a guess.
Old 04-27-2010, 03:29 PM
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it opens cause i could hear it when it did with the windows open once the needle pegged to 1 bar. leak was small and would "go away" when engine warmed up. Still it bothered me. I swear I could hear it even with the engine off and the car locked away in the garage......insanity
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:55 PM
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Leaks are not good and can lead to other issues.

I had a Y pipe welded on the car. It migh have latter let go of some metal as I latter lost a turbine wheel on a new turbo. Or is could have just been a poor turbo build as it was a custom build.

I am starting to concider that for low to mid range the stock intake ports and even the stock cam are not much issue for a street car if the HP goal is under 400 crank HP and driveability is a main goal.
Old 04-28-2010, 07:52 AM
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