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Desi Porsche
 
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1984 911 Carrera, 3.2 Turbo conversion

I am brand new to the hobby, I just got an 84 911 Carrera, 3.2. Good condition 70k original miles. My first project is to put a turbo in it. Don't know where to start. Any input will be appreciated.
Old 05-04-2010, 10:32 AM
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Congratulations. Not to be a "wise guy" BUT , many of us where there years ago,I don't have the links but if you search 3.2 turbo conversions you will find a lot of info, this project will boil down to two simple questions 1- How much Horsepower you want. 2- How much money do we have The rest is easy
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:51 PM
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Juan is right, there is a fair amount of info on this and it depends on your goals.

However, I still love to bench build so I will share my two cents worth of what I would do which is different from most.

Most build a 'blow thru', I would follow what Porsche did with the 944 Turbo and do a 'suck through'.

On the exhaust side, get a J pipe off a euro or late 930, a K27-7200 turbo, and any 930 muffler of your choice. Would buy a new Wast Gate with a .7 bar spring. Maybe a stock 930 WG at .8 bar. This makes for a stock bolt on install with your Carrera heat exchangers.

Order a set of J&E pistons at 7/1 to 8/1 compression. Install new pistons w rings, have the heads worked (or at least the exhaust guides done), and upgrade the rod bolts when in there.

I would source a 91/2 C2 turbo intercooler & turbo to IC tube and have the Carrera mafold modified to fit it (cut and weld to turn the throtle body orintation).

I would leave the AFM and stock air filter in its place and plumb it to the intake of the turbo (suck through). Might go through the drivers side of the motor compartment with the plumbing. Might use an aftermarket Bosch replacement BOV from the stock intercooler to the tubing section between the AFM and turbo in side.

I would fit a Synpase rasing rate fuel pressure regulator. Might try tuning it with the RRFPR, adjusting the spring rate on the AFM, and use the fuel quality switch on the Motronics control box for fuel and to retard timing some.

If needed I would approach 911Chips.com or Protomotove for help with a custom chip.

Should pull about 400chp. It should look stock with a Porsche intercooler / stock Carrera intake box, it would be very responsive with the K27 7200turbo, should stay within the strength of the stock transmission.

A stonger clutch with a double spring disk (like the 944TurboS) tuned to the expected TQ level might be a good idea.

I would drain the turbo into the chain housing or case drain plug.

There are other little details but this is much of it.


Last edited by 911st; 05-04-2010 at 01:28 PM..
Old 05-04-2010, 01:22 PM
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Hmmm, I don't think you need to go all of the above for 400chp.

I'm not bench building, I have done this, it's piss easy...

* Get a Protomotive FPR so easy...
* Protomotive Chip (after all these guys are the pioneers)
* Garret or Precision BB Turbo, why spend the same $ on an ancient KKK turbo.
* J-pipe will work but go straight to headers, GSF or Brian's if you've got the cash.
* Leave the bottom end in place, it will hold at this level.
* Run a TiAL 46mm wastegate with .5- .7bar
* Various intercooler choices

Upgrade to a 930 clutch disc when yours starts spinning.

Then go walk some ricers!
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:24 PM
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Listen to Spense, he knows what he is doing.

Ya, proven makes much more sense.

Just what I would probably do if I did one today.

I live in Calif and I just would want a more stock look. Also the HP limits of the
K27-7200 are more in line with a 915 transmission and it is proven for a suck through install. Also, a suck through would not have issue with blowing apart the AFM or the elbo.

As to the clutch suggestion, this is what was to try to protect the 915transmission. Porsche did this with the 944turbo S to try to protect the transmission. We just do not want the torque to blow through the disk springs and act like an impact hammer. It is just a thought.

Yes, a path less traveled by most here but more how Porsche did it using the 944Turbo as a model. It is also more like how RUF did the C2 and 993 Turbo conversions except they used a MAF sensor that can not be used as a blow through. This alows for conversion to a MAF at a latter date.

Again, just what I would do.

Having said that, I love the Promotive approach and one is not reinventing the wheel doing so.

Last edited by 911st; 05-04-2010 at 09:22 PM..
Old 05-04-2010, 09:18 PM
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I do agree on the suck, I did blow though and it's really not ideal but it is easier, you'd have to lengthen the afm wires and sort out a few other issues but it would be worth it. I have an experimental AFM to MAP conversion kit here that I have never fitted, so overdue, I just don't have the time.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:24 PM
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Porsche Crest $60K can get you about 600-700 HP

Quote:
Originally Posted by rswamy View Post
I am brand new to the hobby, I just got an 84 911 Carrera, 3.2. Good condition 70k original miles. My first project is to put a turbo in it. Don't know where to start. Any input will be appreciated.
Wow, this is like swimming in shark infested waters after chumming! Danger, Danger!

Congratz on the new Porsche 911 and your first post to Pelican's open forum!

Not sure what you consider fast or maybe you also own a McLaren F1? -Or how much boost do you need your 70K mile engine to hold? What kind of street level comfort does this need to have? Emissions? Machinist / fabricator yourself?

Details and answers to these kind of questions will be a more direct method of starting in good direction.

Next, call a few reputable companies that produce real motorsport quality products, engine development specialize in Porsche Turbos. Who are the pros and how are they doing it?

If you are prepared to pull and build a real capable turbo engine, you may discover it will cost you more that the car is worth to do it right. I believe EFI is the only option worthy of the parts.

I guess at this point, I'd start with a turbo engine to retrofit. Then if you need more than 400, throw money at it! Love that turbo enthusiasm!


PS: TurboKraft in AZ does similar conversions and is worth a good look.
Old 05-05-2010, 12:24 AM
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Welcome!
My interpretation of your question is that you are looking for a low boost bolt-on solution that does not require getting into the engine. That is commonly done and a forum search should reveal much info. Ben (M&K) made kits for this at one time; you might send him an email. His personal car has this 3.2L/Turbo modification and runs 0.5-0.6bar if memory serves.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:11 AM
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Here is more what what I would be interested in doing. It keeps the stock air box location and uses a C2 Turbo intercooler.

The hope being it would not tweak the smog visual. Could just boltt on a stock 930 cat exhaust and show up on a Sunday morning when the low man on the totem pole is still nursing his first cup of Joe.

This is a RUF C2 conversion.

Old 05-05-2010, 07:26 AM
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Porsche ran .8 bar with 7/1 compression for an on boost compression ratio of about 10.2. on the 930's.

Latter they ran 8/1 with .7 bar for a net of about 11.8/1 on the 944 turbo and 993TT.

A modded 930 seems ok with 7/1 CR running 1 bar at about 11/1 on boost compression.

I am sometimes wonder about the low pressure builds being on the aggressive side.

.5 to .7 bar on a stock Carrera's 9.5/1 is a net of about 11.5/1 to 12.3/1 on boost compression ratio.

To stay under 11/1 net compression one would have to keep boost down to 5.5 psi. or .37 bar. To maintain a stock 930's CR the boost would have to limit boost to about 2.6 psi or 1.8 bar.

However, it seems to work well. Later stock normally aspirated Porsche's run up to 13.2/1 with knock sensing and twin plugs and some of them even seem to be able to run low boost on top of that.

My only guess is it is the lower intake temps that come with a low boost operation and very good tunning is what makes this possable.
Old 05-05-2010, 07:43 AM
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Desi Porsche
 
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Thanks to all the guys, I feel at home now. I'm not into racing, just want to have some fun over the weekends, leave a few cars in the dust on the freeway. I'm very mechanically inclined (used to be an aircraft mechanic, if that means anything) so I would like to do the conversion myself. I'm not looking for anything more than 400chp and would like to go for a bolt-on solutions as much as possible. As for cost, give me some ball park numbers, I definitely don't want to spend cost of the car. Keep it coming guys....
Old 05-05-2010, 09:59 AM
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J pipe $125, Tial Waste gate $600, used K27-7200 $750, Chip $550, RRFPR $500, Dyno AFR time $400, O2 moniter system $600, used 930 muffler $250, misc plumbing etc $800+.

Probably $4 to 5k to start.

Optional: Clutch, boost gauge, big brakes, intercooler, headers...

Just a guess.
Old 05-05-2010, 10:18 AM
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So here goes, .5 bar of non adjustable boost, single turbo non intercooler without opening the engine will give you 320rwhp.

This is a "bolt on" kit but I don't think anyone sells them anymore but you can piece it together, for what is worth I still have my old set of Headers which still for sale.

I second the Protomotive approach since they were the Grandfathers of my project, this venture will be in the $4500 to $6500 range depending on the "add ons" and the while we are here"
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:41 AM
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I have slowly sourced pars for this conversion for at least 5 years. I got some great deals and probably do not/will not have more than $1500.00 in parts.
J-Pipe-$75.00
RRFPR (BEGI) $100.00
Stock Wastegate-$$75.00
Stage Two Chip-Traded stock chip and $75.00-have to re-program for $125.00
K27-7200-$277.00..GREAT SHAPE
Turbo muff-$100.00
Boost gauge-$50.00
Wide band monitor(Dynojet)-$125.00
930 Tin $100.00
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:50 AM
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Your the master Ben.
Old 05-05-2010, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Porsche ran .8 bar with 7/1 compression for an on boost compression ratio of about 10.2. on the 930's.

Latter they ran 8/1 with .7 bar for a net of about 11.8/1 on the 944 turbo and 993TT.

A modded 930 seems ok with 7/1 CR running 1 bar at about 11/1 on boost compression.

I am sometimes wonder about the low pressure builds being on the aggressive side.

.5 to .7 bar on a stock Carrera's 9.5/1 is a net of about 11.5/1 to 12.3/1 on boost compression ratio.

To stay under 11/1 net compression one would have to keep boost down to 5.5 psi. or .37 bar. To maintain a stock 930's CR the boost would have to limit boost to about 2.6 psi or 1.8 bar.

However, it seems to work well. Later stock normally aspirated Porsche's run up to 13.2/1 with knock sensing and twin plugs and some of them even seem to be able to run low boost on top of that.

My only guess is it is the lower intake temps that come with a low boost operation and very good tunning is what makes this possable.
They seem to hold together at .7 bar, the great thing is it's no slower than a stock carrera, you still have the 200 odd horse before boost, I think a 930 has something like 140hp off boost? Plus the higher gearing of the 915 or G50 and you have a much more drivable car in my opinion, not 930 bashing at all they are still my all time favorite car. My next step is to goto 8:1 but I fear the lose of that all round drivability but the 485hp (protomotive quotes at .85bar) will surely make up for it!

That RUF conversion looks very nice, looks very factory. I need to hunt a 965 intercooler down.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:50 PM
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this is what i would do.

since the car is already EFI - remove stock electronics and put together a Megasquirt/EDIS6 package (under $900) infinately tunable and no MAF to deal with.

Keep the stock headers and attach the turbo in the apporpriate location (if you can't figure that out stop what you are doing and back away from the tools )

forget the intercooler - this will lower parts and fabrication costs considerably. Install a simple Methanol injection set-up (controlled by the previously mentioned megasquirt) under $400

Pick up a nice Master power 60-1 T3 turbo - under $600

assorted piping, couplers and clamps (I can help you with, sorry for the shameless plug) $200

Simple, reasonably priced, effective
Old 05-05-2010, 03:56 PM
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not to mention the factory parts you remove can be sold to offset build costs
Old 05-05-2010, 03:58 PM
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This is a nice idea, the Motronic system really is pre historic, I wonder if you did this without a RRFPR the stock injectors/fuel pressure would be able to deliver enough. This set up would require more dyno/tuning time that could get costly but the outcome would no doubt be better. Is it hard to tune cold start/hot start, idle etc with megasquirt? I have been looking into ECUs and have pretty much decided to go Motec as everyone can tune them here.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:23 PM
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I would replace the dual factory regulators with a single aftermarket unit. $150
I'm not sure what size the factory injectors are but they can be swapped out for something larger for no more than a few hundred bucks. Or you could crank up base fuel pressure (and tune around that with the megasquirt)

With a wide band O2 sensor wired into the MS there would be no need for dyno time other than bragging rights. The datalogging capability of MS is quite up to the task of "on road" tuning. You'll have driveability and WOT tuned in an afternoon of driving with a buddy and a lap top.

My car fires right up cold or hot. I have not however spent much time "fine tuning" cold start. I hold the throttle down slightly after the car fires during cold start for a few seconds then shes ready to go. Hot start is a non-issue all together.

The default settings in MS are actually pretty good. But you will need to spend some time tuning... But trust me, once you get into it you'll get obsessed with tinkering and fine tuning and your lap top will never leave the car. I bought a little netbook that stays in the car hooked up to the MS. I use it at the track for boost adjustments and datalogging and pretty much for fun.
Old 05-05-2010, 04:37 PM
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