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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
So everything was stock except the engine management...
So is the GT35 an option with CIS?
Given tuned CIS is good for 400HP, I'd say yes. To go one step further you can even get knock control on CIS using a J&S knock box...a CIS motor with a GT35 and J&S + digital WUR would be a beastly combination. You could even likely get it to run fine at 8:1 CR like the EFI guys.
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Old 05-18-2010, 06:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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HMM, more food for thought. I have the ability to do the fab work, so the question is do I chop up my B&B's or build headers. Would 180* headers into a twin scroll work? Sounds like
Old 05-18-2010, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
So everything was stock except the engine management...
On that 964 C2, yes -- the core engine was stock but for ARP fasteners and 8:1 compression pistons (our pistons & rings + LNE Nickie cylinders).


Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
So is the GT35 an option with CIS?
Yes, we fit the GT35R turbos to the 930/911 Turbos with CIS injection. It's pretty simple. We have the new oil feed line, oil outlet adapter or flange (different flange size), compressor inlet & outlet, and even a muffler flange if needed (depends on your muffler).

And in comparison dynos we have seen significantly faster spool up than K27-7200 turbochargers on comparable 3.3L engines.
Really, the best data we get is from clients who have had K27s and hybrids and switched to Garrett GT turbochargers. Not once has someone told us they felt like the Garrett was a worse turbo than their prior K27/hybrid. And that's the best feedback we can ask for.
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Last edited by TurboKraft; 05-18-2010 at 09:01 AM.. Reason: addition to post
Old 05-18-2010, 08:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
[snip]

And in comparison dynos we have seen significantly faster spool up than K27-7200 turbochargers on comparable 3.3L engines.
Really, the best data we get is from clients who have had K27s and hybrids and switched to Garrett GT turbochargers. Not once has someone told us they felt like the Garrett was a worse turbo than their prior K27/hybrid. And that's the best feedback we can ask for.
For someone who likes his stock motor and enjoys the occasional hot rod drive, the GT35r is a good upgrade to any Kxx turbo (hybrid too). The problem is not too many of these guys want to pay or experience the additional fab work needed to make it work - it's not a direct bolt on.

For someone looking for a true performance upgrade, the GT35r is probably one of those upgrades that qualifies for "best bang for the buck" moniker. Out of all the parts I've put on my car over the past 7 years, this turbo is one of the only things that has remained and performed as expected since I bought it for the last 5 years. It's never been rebuilt, will take lots or very little oil to work (depending on scavenge pump), spools quick, and so on. Not sure about a T4 vs T3 flange though. Bigger is not always better on these motors - it's all about velocity and turbo efficency.
Old 05-18-2010, 09:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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Was the GT35R done after 6000 rpm due to boost falling off, or due to flow restrictions of the stock heads, cams, exhaust? In other words, could GT35R support higher rpm on properly built 3.6? Also What would be the boost treshhold of GT4088 on a properly build 3.6 engine?
Thanks
Old 05-18-2010, 10:07 AM
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This morning, another person committed to sending us his headers for a T04 flange and twin wastegates.
We now have 3 to do, so we're now going to build a fixture for this to make it a simpler, repeatable process in the future. The T04 will be in approximately the same position as the original turbocharger, with the turbo's centerline height and angle similar to stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
HMM, more food for thought. I have the ability to do the fab work, so the question is do I chop up my B&B's or build headers. Would 180* headers into a twin scroll work? Sounds like
Up to you. Balance the cost of DIY vs. paying someone vs. the cost of all new, and the gain you might or might not get from a different primary tube design. Fabbing all new is not a small job, and making good heat exchangers is a PITA as Brian will attest to...

There is also a twin-scroll T3 flange available for the GT35R, albeit in limited A/Rs and only with a 3" V-band discharge flange. Less modification and fabrication to your headers, but a change to the muffler flange.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
The other thing that has been sorely missing until the latest breed of EMS is knock control. Properly set up knock control can give at least a half point bump in usable static CR...a huge benefit for off line response and low end boost pressure.
Absolutely. Knock control is a wonderful safety mechanism allowing you to run closer to the threshold without melting the engine. Some systems, like AEM, have had it for years, and Motec *finally* has added it, too (a very sophisticated version).
Watching different cars on the dyno, it's shocking how little some engines use the knock sensors -- very conservative tuning from the factory -- while others, like the Nissan/Infinity VQ35 (absolutely brilliant engine) and the latest Mercedes/AMG engines are *constantly* using the knock sensors to adjust timing and save the engine.
Several people on this board have reported success with the J&S Safeguard knock control units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Turbokraft is definitely doing it right and thinking of problems in terms of 2010, instead of thinking like it is 1992. Kudos!
Thanks for the kind words.
I am very fortunate to share a large workshop with a former co-worker who builds and tunes all varieties of imports (and some current LS-series V8s). His Dynapack chassis dyno is in the back of my shop and we get to see all kinds of products and technologies put to the test on various engines – assorted sizes and brands of turbochargers and intercoolers; various manual and electronic boost controllers, wastegates and diverter/blow-off valves; different manufacturers’ rods, pistons and rings; numerous engine management systems and related sensors; exhaust system and intake manifold designs…
Some of the stuff is great, some not-so-great, and some is utter garbage.
When we see something that makes sense and works, we look for ways to incorporate it into our Porsches.
Why not use the latest technologies available?
Why not drag our beloved 911 Turbos into the 20th century and pit them against the latest and greatest on the road?
I think there’s probably no sports car on the road more enjoyable than a retro-rod built air-cooled 911 Turbo – so that’s what we build and promote.


FWIW, 2 other lessons from observing all these other cars being built and run on the dyno:
1. Temper the enthusiasm and be cautious employing new technologies because that car on the dyno can probably have the entire stock engine replaced for the cost of our gasket + bearing set. Sometimes the cost of our 911 piston & cylinder set is greater than the cost of the car on the dyno…
2. Big, repeatable, sustainable power numbers, like 550-600rwhp, with any measure of drivability and reliability always cost a lot of money, regardless of the brand or model of vehicle. Mk.IV Supra, 350Z/G35, K-series Honda, Mitsu Evo/DSM, LS3 Camaro, whatever – once you get past the off-the-shelf external bolt-ons (if the parts really even “bolts on” at all), it all costs big bucks, on par with Porsche costs. There’s no free lunch at the big power levels.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerz View Post
Chris
Was the GT35R done after 6000 rpm due to boost falling off, or due to flow restrictions of the stock heads, cams, exhaust? In other words, could GT35R support higher rpm on properly built 3.6? Also What would be the boost treshhold of GT4088 on a properly build 3.6 engine?
Thanks
Restrictions were the cams and those stock 964 exhaust manifolds.
But that was closing in on the flow limit of the turbochargers turbine wheel and/or turbine housing, too. Backpressure was rising at higher boost pressures and peak HP happened at a slightly lower rpm.
But the client was ecstatic with the outcome, and that's what matters.

Curiosity -- why do you want to build it to rev a lot higher?

GT4088R -- what do you mean by the "boost threshold?" Do you mean when it will spool up, or deliver 1.0bar boost?
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
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This is good stuff!
Old 05-18-2010, 03:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Curiosity -- why do you want to build it to rev a lot higher?
I bought a built 600hp+ 3.6 965 engine from a guy on this board. I was told it had "wild" cams, but no specs on them. Also Pauter rods, 54mm intake valves, 41mm intake ports. Looks like it was built for higher then normal RPM. I am getting ready to install it, but hadn't decided on the turbo yet. I am leaning towards 35r, but want to make sure that it will match my engine characteristics.



[QUOTE] GT4088R -- what do you mean by the "boost threshold?" Do you mean when it will spool up, or deliver 1.0bar boost? [QUOTE]

I meant when it will deliver 1 bar, but now that you mentioned it, I would like to know both.

Thanks
Old 05-18-2010, 11:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
With a good intercooler and good tuning, yes.

GT40R -- sure you could, if you're after even more power. And with 8.0:1 compression, I wouldn't worry about this engine being lazy.
Un-cork the B&B headers by modifying (enlarging) the secondary pipes and make them flow smoothly into a divided T04 flange, and add 2 small external wastegates, one for each secondary. Now you have twin-scroll headers (no not equal length, but we're not starting with expensive new ones, either). This is similar to what we're doing to Tom's 1984 930:
2010: An EFI Hot Rod Odyssey

Lest you worry about a GT40R spooling up late, either, we had a worn-the-#$%&-out 1978 930 racecar come into the shop once. Tired 3.3L 7.0:1 compression (or less), GT2 cams, Carrera manifold, poorly ported 930 heads, old EFI, twin-plug 964 dizzy. Big intercooler, but really poorly plumbed, lots of backpressure. GT4088R with largest A/R turbine. Dump pipe. Cobbled headers in an attempt to convert to T04 flange, with major restrictions. Doesn't make desired 17psi boost until 4,635rpm, and creeps up to 19.5psi. 485rwhp/458rwtq, and feels like it's going to blow any second.
Fast forward a few weeks and we've built new twin-scroll headers with twin wastegates, re-plumb the inlet & outlet of the intercooler, add a race muffler to quiet it down, and minor ECU re-tuning.
Same worn out engine now makes 515rwhp/528rwtq at 17psi, no more boost creep.
And full boost by 3,500rpm.
Thanks Chris, getting me excited about my build now.
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
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