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Eye of the Toiger
 
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Opionions on the Garret GT35R on a 3.6

I'm looking at purchasing a garret GT35R with tial T4 housing for my 3.6 (993 96 block was running vram) single turbo build, I'm planning on running Corrillo Rods and JE turbo pistons not sure to go for low CR 7.0:1 and higher boost or higher CR 8.0:1 with lower boost, but i would like to make 450 hp if possible, I have a 3.6 manifold and will be running efi.

I just need some help choosing my configuration, I'm going to be running B&B exhaust (I will look at purchasing a Rarly8 at a later date).

I'm running a 930 tranny looking at a higher first and lower 4th gear change.

If some one could give me an idea of what configuration would be helpful.

thanks

Matt
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:36 PM
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Here's a sweet tool for plotting your engine onto a compressor map, including the GT3571, which is pretty close:

Squirrel Performance
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Here's a sweet tool for plotting your engine onto a compressor map, including the GT3571, which is pretty close:

Squirrel Performance
+1
Nice site. I've been using this site to determine which Garrett would work well with my engine. I read on some threads here the GT35R may be a bit small for 3.3 liter turbos, but I think they were pushing for more HP than 450BHP.
Here are screen shots of the GT35R and GT37R turbos.




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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 05-14-2010, 07:34 AM
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Here's a couple more related websites that may be of help..
Not2Fast: Turbo Calculator
Ray Hall Turbocharging - Java calculation applets
TiAL Sport.com
Old 05-14-2010, 07:54 AM
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Matt,

You could also build something similar to this with the stock internal+compression and low boost. It what I plan to do IF I ever get around to it.
993 turbo project - 6speedonline.com Forums
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:20 AM
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I'd say that the 35R really hits the sweet spot on the efficiency map for those numbers.
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:22 AM
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go for the higher comp ratio. The more power the engine makes in N/A form the less boost you'll need to hit your hp target.

and the GT35 looks like a perfect fit for a 500hp 930
Old 05-15-2010, 09:23 AM
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I have to say that the GT35r does a great job on my 3.4L. It's quite capable of getting to 1.5 bar nearly as quick as 1 bar - quick spool too.
Old 05-15-2010, 05:32 PM
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+1 on the GT35R.

Fantastic for 500+hp, responsive, durable. Tolerates a wide range of displacements -- I've seen them on engines from 1.6L to 4L+

And 8:1 isn't too high on the compression with a well-tuned EFI system.

We recently used a GT35R with T04 turbine on an ultra simple, budget-build 964 engine. Stock cams, stock heads, stock exhaust manifolds -- not even B&B headers -- and a huge muffler. Kind of a "Ruf RCT" style layout.

450hp/460tq to the wheels at only 0.9bar boost on 91-octane pump gas.

Really drivable, despite crummy exhaust manifolds.
Silly fast spool up. All done by 6,000rpm, no need to rev it way up.

The client also asked for a "high boost" setting for when he runs 100-oct on the track.
522.3hp @ 5,169rpm / 549.4tq @ 4,831rpm -- Dynapack chassis dyno, 1.2bar
Not bad for a budget setup.

An absolute ball to throw around on the street, and a terror on the track.
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
+1 on the GT35R.

Fantastic for 500+hp, responsive, durable. Tolerates a wide range of displacements -- I've seen them on engines from 1.6L to 4L+
Yup - plenty of Evo and STi running these in stock and modded form.
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
+1 on the GT35R.

Fantastic for 500+hp, responsive, durable. Tolerates a wide range of displacements -- I've seen them on engines from 1.6L to 4L+

And 8:1 isn't too high on the compression with a well-tuned EFI system.

We recently used a GT35R with T04 turbine on an ultra simple, budget-build 964 engine. Stock cams, stock heads, stock exhaust manifolds -- not even B&B headers -- and a huge muffler. Kind of a "Ruf RCT" style layout.

450hp/460tq to the wheels at only 0.9bar boost on 91-octane pump gas.

Really drivable, despite crummy exhaust manifolds.
Silly fast spool up. All done by 6,000rpm, no need to rev it way up.

The client also asked for a "high boost" setting for when he runs 100-oct on the track.
522.3hp @ 5,169rpm / 549.4tq @ 4,831rpm -- Dynapack chassis dyno, 1.2bar
Not bad for a budget setup.

An absolute ball to throw around on the street, and a terror on the track.
wOW, I like that. What made you go with the T4 exhaust? I was thinking of a T3 .81 housing GT35 for my stock 3.3 motor. The K27 just aint cutting it anymore, got 370rwhp out of it but I want 400rwhp without having to run a bunch of boost.
Old 05-17-2010, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
+1 on the GT35R.

We recently used a GT35R with T04 turbine on an ultra simple, budget-build 964 engine. Stock cams, stock heads, stock exhaust manifolds -- not even B&B headers -- and a huge muffler. Kind of a "Ruf RCT" style layout.

450hp/460tq to the wheels at only 0.9bar boost on 91-octane pump gas.

Really drivable, despite crummy exhaust manifolds.
Silly fast spool up. All done by 6,000rpm, no need to rev it way up.

An absolute ball to throw around on the street, and a terror on the track.
Chris, what did the AFR look like at 6000 rpm?
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
wOW, I like that. What made you go with the T4 exhaust? I was thinking of a T3 .81 housing GT35 for my stock 3.3 motor. The K27 just aint cutting it anymore, got 370rwhp out of it but I want 400rwhp without having to run a bunch of boost.
Shoot me an email and I'll price out everything you need to convert from the K-series turbo to a Garrett GT. 420+rwhp on pump gas is simple on even a flat manifold 930/C2T with EFI (headers, muffler, intercooler, stock cams and intake ports, single plug).

Why a T04 flange:
- The customer is a bit of a power junkie (aren't we all?). We built the system to fit a Garrett GT40R in case he wanted/needed more turbocharger -- so that meant making the exhaust accommodate a big T04 flange, and spacing everything to allow a bigger compressor cover, too.
- If we were disappointed by the performance (response, power), or we believed the exhaust backpressure was too great despite the 1.0-ish A/R turbine housing -- I really wasn't sure about those stock heat exchangers' and their effects -- it would be simple to bolt in the larger turbocharger. No problem, the GT35RS worked really well.
- the cat-delete pipe feeding the turbocharger was closer in circumference to the T-04 flange's opening than the T3's opening, so it seemed natural to use the larger flange.
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:17 PM
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So I could run 1.0 bar boost on a twin plug 3.6 efi, 8:1 CR on 98 octane gas? Could I go a bigger turbo charger? like a T40?
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
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Chris, what did the AFR look like at 6000 rpm?
Flat 12.0:1 on 91-octane.
Flat 11.8:1 on 100-octane. Could have gone leaner, but there's some concerns about the quality and variety of his "race gas" so a little conservative on the fuel, and aggressive on the knock control (pulls a ton of timing and reduces boost).

AEM programmable engine management -- injection + ignition + boost + Lambda + knock. So really, AFR is whatever I want it to be.

In this case we modified the existing 964 DME harness, which was fortunately in really good condition, and ran a dozen or so additional wires for additional functions. But given the condition of most electrical harnesses after 16-21 years, and the number of hours it took to convert the stock harness, it is usually better to build a whole new engine harness.
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
Flat 12.0:1 on 91-octane.
Flat 11.8:1 on 100-octane. Could have gone leaner, but there's some concerns about the quality and variety of his "race gas" so a little conservative on the fuel, and aggressive on the knock control (pulls a ton of timing and reduces boost).

AEM programmable engine management -- injection + ignition + boost + Lambda + knock. So really, AFR is whatever I want it to be.

In this case we modified the existing 964 DME harness, which was fortunately in really good condition, and ran a dozen or so additional wires for additional functions. But given the condition of most electrical harnesses after 16-21 years, and the number of hours it took to convert the stock harness, it is usually better to build a whole new engine harness.
Don't forget that Australia uses the RON octane rating, versus the US which uses the (RON/MON)/2 calc. Their 98 octane is dead on for US 92/93 octane
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Old 05-17-2010, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty74 View Post
So I could run 1.0 bar boost on a twin plug 3.6 efi, 8:1 CR on 98 octane gas? Could I go a bigger turbo charger? like a T40?
With a good intercooler and good tuning, yes.

GT40R -- sure you could, if you're after even more power. And with 8.0:1 compression, I wouldn't worry about this engine being lazy.
Un-cork the B&B headers by modifying (enlarging) the secondary pipes and make them flow smoothly into a divided T04 flange, and add 2 small external wastegates, one for each secondary. Now you have twin-scroll headers (no not equal length, but we're not starting with expensive new ones, either). This is similar to what we're doing to Tom's 1984 930:
2010: An EFI Hot Rod Odyssey

Lest you worry about a GT40R spooling up late, either, we had a worn-the-#$%&-out 1978 930 racecar come into the shop once. Tired 3.3L 7.0:1 compression (or less), GT2 cams, Carrera manifold, poorly ported 930 heads, old EFI, twin-plug 964 dizzy. Big intercooler, but really poorly plumbed, lots of backpressure. GT4088R with largest A/R turbine. Dump pipe. Cobbled headers in an attempt to convert to T04 flange, with major restrictions. Doesn't make desired 17psi boost until 4,635rpm, and creeps up to 19.5psi. 485rwhp/458rwtq, and feels like it's going to blow any second.
Fast forward a few weeks and we've built new twin-scroll headers with twin wastegates, re-plumb the inlet & outlet of the intercooler, add a race muffler to quiet it down, and minor ECU re-tuning.
Same worn out engine now makes 515rwhp/528rwtq at 17psi, no more boost creep.
And full boost by 3,500rpm.
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Last edited by TurboKraft; 05-17-2010 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: posted before finished typing (ctrl+enter)
Old 05-17-2010, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
AEM programmable engine management -- injection + ignition + boost + Lambda + knock. So really, AFR is whatever I want it to be.
So everything was stock except the engine management...
So is the GT35 an option with CIS?
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:09 PM
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after looking at the maps on a GT3582R it seems to be a "fits all" turbo. It's in the 78%+ efficiency island on a 3.3 whether you want 350hp or 550hp. Incredible little turbo.

Turbokraft- you have me thinking now. I like the idea of the twin scroll housing, quick response and top end power.
Old 05-18-2010, 06:04 AM
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Twin scroll is a no brainer...seems every turbo set up for twin scroll has a spool threshold at least 500 RPM sooner than merged, non-equal length collectors. The ones that seem to do best are the turbos designed with segragated intakes inside the turbo all the way to the turbine, but as has been seen with the RarlyL8 headers, even merging just before the flange has benefits in keeping the pulse signature of the exhaust clean until the last possible moment.

Every turbo used in the latest breed of small bore Japanese turbo rockets use this technology to achieve big power and quick spool, even in 2 - 2.5L motors. I am glad to see this thinking bleeding over into Porsche-land. It has no downside.

The other thing that has been sorely missing until the latest breed of EMS is knock control. Properly set up knock control can give at least a half point bump in usable static CR...a huge benefit for off line response and low end boost pressure. Water cooling is an easy scapegoat to dismiss why the pocket rockets can run 9:1 CR and 30 lbs of boost...water cooling does have significant benefit, but the answer for air cooled 911 motors lies in between the 930 status quo and the newest breed of turbo cars. This thread is a great step in putting myths to rest.

Turbokraft is definitely doing it right and thinking of problems in terms of 2010, instead of thinking like it is 1992. Kudos!
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Old 05-18-2010, 06:26 AM
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