Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 11 votes, 2.73 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
After the next project
 
x98boardwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Central Valley, CA
Posts: 1,517
Garage
Great thread

If I was home on my computer I would be adding photos as well. Thanks for starting a great thread Jim and to all the contributors so far.

Bryan
__________________
Previous cars:
1987 930, 1975 914 2.0, 1989 944 Turbo S, 1991 964 Targa, 2004 996TT Convertible, 550-6 Spyder with a 2.4 liter twin plug "S-spec'd motor"

Current cars: 2006 Cayenne TTS, 1991 964 Cabrio, 1997 993TT, 1984 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Old 06-10-2010, 12:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,859
Thanks Bryan. Too bad my old PC crashed last year. I had a ton of pix, including my rebuild on it.
Old 06-10-2010, 01:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvision930 View Post
MARK. In another thread.... "Engine Miss, Loss of Power???" you try to give "spoke" advice on "jumping the yellow relay" just to get the fuel pumps working in order to get a stranded newbie like myself going. You also have a pick here with which I assume is two red jumper wires in place of the yellow relay.

Could you explain in layman's detail how you do this? Where do the wires go? You also mention a "white wire or ground??"

I could of used this this past Wednesday when my car left me stranded. The car wanted to turn over.... but the pumps were silent. Luckily I was a block from a mechanic buddy and he got me going. Of course he was silent about how he got me going. He said he had a "cheat" way of doing it.

I am assuming this is the way.
The thread you refer to is here: Yellow boost relay issues

In layman's terms...well, aren't we all? Relative to the stuff in the engine bay, the pumps won't run unless (1) the metering plate has moved enough to operate the metering plate switch, (2) a good ground connection (white wire) to the overboost pressure switch (assuming the switch itself is good and (3) the yellow relay is in good condition and is receiving it's ground source from the overboost pressure switch.

If you pull the relay, the pumps won't run even if you manually move the metering plate or pull the switch connector plug behind it. If you short across the terminals as my picture shows (those are 87 and 87A; others have shorted across 87A and 30 but that didn't work for me) your pumps will run continuously if you have pulled the connector plug, or will run only when the metering plate is moved if you leave the plug connected. All this assumes you have a good ground at the pressure switch (if the switch is faulty and is "open", that white wire won't ground and your yellow relay won't work).

When she won't start or suddenly dies for fuel reasons, check the fuse and relays up front, with ignition on see if the pumps will run by manually depressing the metering plate or pulling the connector plug off behind it, check white wire to OB pressure switch and if in doubt...ground it out somewhere to take the switch out of the equation, unplug/clean/spread the pins/check wiring harness of the yellow relay and if still no-workie, short out the connectors as described.

That's all rear engine bay stuff. Could be other reasons she won't run. Rummage under the front seat.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-10-2010, 04:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,108
Hi Mark, I said I was jumping 87a and 30 but I was looking at the pin number diagram on the side of the yellow relay wrong. I'm actually jumping 87a and 86.

Hard to say which ones are correct because on the inside there is a ribbon connector between the main circut board and the mounting pin circut board and that makes it hard to trace what each pin is going to.

Anyway, when I jump pins 87a and 86 my overboost sensor still works as it should. If I pull the white wire off it the motor shuts off, put it back on or ground it and the motor will run and the yellow relay is no where near the car... only 87a and 86 pins are jumped.

So.. there's still some question about that yellow relay.
I'm thinking it does 2 or maybe 3 things.. like the short fuel pump burst when first turning the key to start the car that some people have noticed.
It probably works with the airflow sensor plate safety switch because I remember hearing a click from it when moving the sensor plate or removing/replacing the green plug and maybe it has something to do with the overboost sensor but mine works normally with only those 2 pins jumped.

for now I'll just enjoy the mystery... nothing new with this car and most women.
Old 06-10-2010, 05:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Hi Mark, I said I was jumping 87a and 30 but I was looking at the pin number diagram on the side of the yellow relay wrong. I'm actually jumping 87a and 86.

Hard to say which ones are correct because on the inside there is a ribbon connector between the main circut board and the mounting pin circut board and that makes it hard to trace what each pin is going to.

Anyway, when I jump pins 87a and 86 my overboost sensor still works as it should. If I pull the white wire off it the motor shuts off, put it back on or ground it and the motor will run and the yellow relay is no where near the car... only 87a and 86 pins are jumped.

So.. there's still some question about that yellow relay.
I'm thinking it does 2 or maybe 3 things.. like the short fuel pump burst when first turning the key to start the car that some people have noticed.
It probably works with the airflow sensor plate safety switch because I remember hearing a click from it when moving the sensor plate or removing/replacing the green plug and maybe it has something to do with the overboost sensor but mine works normally with only those 2 pins jumped.

for now I'll just enjoy the mystery... nothing new with this car and most women.
Yep, I'm with you on the mystery. One of these days I'll have to 'attempt' to follow the wiring schematics again. Seems to me that my 87/87A combination came about by trial and error. Hell, maybe I'm not looking at the relay correctly myself and am actually going between 87A and 86.
Sometimes I would rather screw with the flesh and blood equivalent of a 930, myself.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-10-2010, 06:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
elvision930
 
elvision930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Posts: 33
Garage
Yellow RELAY

Thanks Mark.

I think this is a good one for this thread. Perhaps when I was cleaning up my engine bay after a spark plug change... I may have done something. As a matter of fact I read somewhere, Although I cannot remember where... that to spread the connections on the relays apart slightly to provide a tighter fit. Perhaps I should not have done this. Because I it shut down this week. I will take a closer look. Maybe even get jumper wires for my glove box and a spare yellow relay.
Old 06-11-2010, 10:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,108
Here's my yellow relay with the insides removed.

It may be the origonal one to my 1987 car.

I've spread the pins a little to try and make better contact in the relay socket.

I've taken a soldering iron and melted every solder point on both circuit boards to eliminate the possibility of a bad solder joint over a year ago when trying to figure out why my fuel pumps would shut off every now and then.

I've since found it was probably the speed relay contact pins not making good contact to the plug under the driver seat that was causing that. Lightly scraping the pins which already looked clean with a knife blade has stopped the intermittant fuel pump shutoff problem.

With a cheap digital ohmeter on the continuity setting and the red positive lead on 87a and the black negative lead on 86 it reads around 600. The polarity has to be that way or there is no continuity... probably one of the diodes on the board is causing the polarity thing.
Then if I push the double contact points on the relay apart the ohmeter reading goes to no continuity or nothing.
That makes me think pins 87a and 86 are the right ones to jump to get around a questionable or non working yellow relay.

You can see the dual contact points in this picture and at rest they are together making contact even though it looks like they are apart in this pic..

I took an old non working red fuel pump relay and gutted the insides of the burned out relay and diode and soldered a wire across the 87a and 86terminals and then glued the red cap back on.
I keep it in the glovebox as a yellow relay jumper now and it's in my car in place of the yellow relay at the moment.
The surprising thing is the overboost sensor white wire works with the jumper in place of the yellow relay the same as it does with the yellow relay installed. Ground the wire and the fuel pumps run. Disconnect it from ground like a new overboost sensor does around 1.3bar and the pumps shut off.

I remember the speed relay under the seat has a couple skinny white wires going to the plug that goes on it along with around 8-10 other wires.
The only skinny white wire I remember seeing in the car is the overboost sensor wire. It makes me wonder if the overboost sensor is actually connected to the speed relay with the yellow relay somehow associated with it and the main purpose of the yellow relay might be to shut off the fuel pumps when the air flow meter safety switch is closed like when the engine is off but the ignition is still on.

It's a mystery... I wonder if anyone really knows how all 4 fuel pump relays are wired together and work together.
I'm talking about the 2 red fuel pump relays on the back end of the front relay panel. One is for each fuel pump and the rearmost relay runs the rear fuel pump and WUR and AAV heater elements.
Then the speed relay/rev limiter under the driver seat and the yellow relay on the engine bay relay panel have to be plugged in for the fuel pumps to run too.
Old 06-11-2010, 02:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Here's my yellow relay with the insides removed.

It may be the origonal one to my 1987 car.

I've spread the pins a little to try and make better contact in the relay socket.

I've taken a soldering iron and melted every solder point on both circuit boards to eliminate the possibility of a bad solder joint over a year ago when trying to figure out why my fuel pumps would shut off every now and then.

I've since found it was probably the speed relay contact pins not making good contact to the plug under the driver seat that was causing that. Lightly scraping the pins which already looked clean with a knife blade has stopped the intermittant fuel pump shutoff problem.

With a cheap digital ohmeter on the continuity setting and the red positive lead on 87a and the black negative lead on 86 it reads around 600. The polarity has to be that way or there is no continuity... probably one of the diodes on the board is causing the polarity thing.
Then if I push the double contact points on the relay apart the ohmeter reading goes to no continuity or nothing.
That makes me think pins 87a and 86 are the right ones to jump to get around a questionable or non working yellow relay.

You can see the dual contact points in this picture and at rest they are together making contact even though it looks like they are apart in this pic..

I took an old non working red fuel pump relay and gutted the insides of the burned out relay and diode and soldered a wire across the 87a and 86terminals and then glued the red cap back on.
I keep it in the glovebox as a yellow relay jumper now and it's in my car in place of the yellow relay at the moment.
The surprising thing is the overboost sensor white wire works with the jumper in place of the yellow relay the same as it does with the yellow relay installed. Ground the wire and the fuel pumps run. Disconnect it from ground like a new overboost sensor does around 1.3bar and the pumps shut off.

I remember the speed relay under the seat has a couple skinny white wires going to the plug that goes on it along with around 8-10 other wires.
The only skinny white wire I remember seeing in the car is the overboost sensor wire. It makes me wonder if the overboost sensor is actually connected to the speed relay with the yellow relay somehow associated with it and the main purpose of the yellow relay might be to shut off the fuel pumps when the air flow meter safety switch is closed like when the engine is off but the ignition is still on.

It's a mystery... I wonder if anyone really knows how all 4 fuel pump relays are wired together and work together.
I'm talking about the 2 red fuel pump relays on the back end of the front relay panel. One is for each fuel pump and the rearmost relay runs the rear fuel pump and WUR and AAV heater elements.
Then the speed relay/rev limiter under the driver seat and the yellow relay on the engine bay relay panel have to be plugged in for the fuel pumps to run too.

Good stuff Jim! Take a look at my jumper wire picture. What do you think, 87A/87, or 87A/86? All I know is t hat it makes my car go in absence of the yellow dude. Not home right now so I can't go out and take a closer look.


__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-11-2010, 04:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,859
Looks like 87/87a to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
Good stuff Jim! Take a look at my jumper wire picture. What do you think, 87A/87, or 87A/86? All I know is t hat it makes my car go in absence of the yellow dude. Not home right now so I can't go out and take a closer look.
Old 06-11-2010, 05:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
Canucks Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 2,036
This might be a good book for wayne to write, have different sections for the different cars and call it

101 reasons my car won't start
Old 06-12-2010, 05:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by s_morrison57 View Post

1001 reasons my car won't start
Fixed it for ya...
Old 06-12-2010, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,454
alternator warning light out or diode shot, if this cricuit isnt working the battery wont charge and then battery voltage will always be low. my diode is burned out and the part is no longer available. Not sure if i should bypass it or not.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 06-13-2010, 11:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
Registered User
 
dh930turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 63
Hey A930Rocket thanks for the rear fuel pump pic, i'll have a go at hunting it down at the weekend.
I have to say judging by the picture it aint gonna be easy to get too!!!!!

Regards

Dan
__________________
"Racing is life... everything before and after is just waiting." Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in 'Le Mans'
Old 06-15-2010, 03:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #33 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,108
Jack car up and take the left rear wheel off and the fuel pump is easy to get at.

Unscrew 2 - 10mm nuts on the bottom that you can see in the picture and the fuel pump and it's mounting bracket slides out towards the back of the car, or to the left in the picture after lifting it and the small short 6mm studs out of the mounting holes.

The pump has one hose calmp around it snug to hold it to the bracket, a banjo fitting on the exit and a compresion fitting on the inlet are on long enough hoses to make it easy and 2 little wires to undo.

It's easier than removing the ignition coil thats under the intercooler.
Old 06-15-2010, 07:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Registered User
 
dh930turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 63
Ahh you're a Gentleman!!!!
I like the sound of 'easy'.......is it me or are most of the components on our cars really hard to get at? I have the fuel filter and fuel accumulator off at the moment and awaiting delivery of new replacements, but i have to say they were not easy to get at (obviously i have removed the intercooler first). I'm guessing all German engineers have long slim double jointed hands???
__________________
"Racing is life... everything before and after is just waiting." Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in 'Le Mans'
Old 06-16-2010, 11:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by dh930turbo View Post
Ahh you're a Gentleman!!!!
I like the sound of 'easy'.......is it me or are most of the components on our cars really hard to get at? I have the fuel filter and fuel accumulator off at the moment and awaiting delivery of new replacements, but i have to say they were not easy to get at (obviously i have removed the intercooler first). I'm guessing all German engineers have long slim double jointed hands???
Most of the Germans I know (my grandmother being one of them) have large blocky hands. I think the tight spaces in the engine bay are just their way of getting back at us for past military transgressions.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 06-17-2010, 09:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #36 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,859
Wait until you try to reinstall the fuel filter and accumulator with that PITA clamp is uses. For some reason that always tests my patience...
Old 06-17-2010, 10:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by dh930turbo View Post
Ahh you're a Gentleman!!!!
I like the sound of 'easy'.......is it me or are most of the components on our cars really hard to get at? I have the fuel filter and fuel accumulator off at the moment and awaiting delivery of new replacements, but i have to say they were not easy to get at (obviously i have removed the intercooler first). I'm guessing all German engineers have long slim double jointed hands???
After taking the left rear wheel off the rear fuel pump is right there on the other side of the spring plate and one of the easier things to get at on the whole car.

With the way everything is packed in tightly on a 911 and with very little to no wasted space, the small cockpit, and being air cooled, it is a very well thought out sports car design but often a pain in the butt to work on...

It's kind of like an airplane without wings.
Old 06-17-2010, 10:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #38 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,859
MSD Installation Instructions On A Porsche 911

MSD Installation Instructions On A Porsche 911

1- The large red wire goes to the battery (best to avoid spike) or Positive lug on the starter solenoid.
2- The large black wire goes to ground.
3- The small orange wire goes to the Positive side of the coil.
4- The small black wire goes to the Negative side of the coil.
5- The small red wire goes to switched Pos.
5- The white wire is used to trigger a MSD shift light.
6- The violet wire to the shield.
7- The green wire to the center conductor.

I used a tach adapter, but others have been successful without it. In this case the white wire would not be used, unless you want to trigger a shift light.

Since the Turbo uses a magnetic pick up type distributor, the violet & green wires conduct the trigger voltage to the MSD. This is phase sensitive and must be connected correctly otherwise the car will not start or run poorly. Connect the green wire to the center conductor and violet wire to the shield.

I didn't want to cut up my harness, so I unplugged the wiring connector off the CDI and connected my wires there (the ones from the distributor).


Old 06-19-2010, 03:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Registered User
 
dh930turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by A930Rocket View Post
Wait until you try to reinstall the fuel filter and accumulator with that PITA clamp is uses. For some reason that always tests my patience...
Hmmmm i look forward to that......not!!
Apparently the accumulator is finally in the country (UK) and should be with me any day now!!!

Stupid Question Number 2.

As the old filter and accumulator have been off the car for about 3 weeks now, is there anything i should be doing to 'prime' both of the new ones prior to fitting?
Obviously the old ones were full of fuel when i took them off, will i not cause a vapour lock by installing new components into the fuel loop that are just full of fresh air???

Sorry if that's a dumb question and many thanks in advance for any advice given.

Regards

Dan.
__________________
"Racing is life... everything before and after is just waiting." Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in 'Le Mans'
Old 06-24-2010, 06:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:01 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.