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Praise the Turbo Gods

During the last maintenance routine check in aims to repair a small leak I found that my Old Dinosaur Turbonetics T series's turbo was about ready to retire, an oil leak was beginning to develop and the wheel clearly had signs of an abusive relationship with his car owner .

One thing let to another, and I start to investigate what was the hottest turbo out there and why and who was using it, Immediately I found that AMS has already dyno'd the Billet 67 turbo in a T3 .82. Housing and at 40psi it made 824awhp to all 4 wheels, AMS is one of the first places i look when I'm looking to do something wild since those folks seem to be always ahead of the pack, from there I made some phone calls and Supras are making 800-900hp with this turbo, few more calls and the Skylines which, by the way, are a 2.8 liter engine are making 790-850hp with the same turbo.

I had 3 different engine platforms with different liter engines, so I took the plunge and went with the;

Precision Compressor wheel 67/65
Precision est. 900hp
67mm compressor wheel
65mm turbine wheel

The 6765 Billet Wheel, From what I understand has a major advantage because how the billet wheel spools so fast. It creates more power at a lower RPM than the comparably sized cast wheel. The Billet Wheels are lighter weight and stronger. Therefore, it is easier to spool up.

All that is great on paper having gone through an arsenal of tubos I was VERY skeptical, the first thing that caught my eye was how small this turbo is compared to my huge T series turbo which was capable of making 675rwhp @ 28 psi of boost.

I was already depressed that another $900.00 was going down the drain, after installing the turbo and relocating the oil drain, I was ready for the real test, the test drive, Immediately I noticed that the car sounded completely different, next I can see the boost coming in at 2600rpm! from my 4200 rpm.

Once I got to my testing area the results were mind blowing, the car feels like a completely new car, MUCH stronger, boosts comes in very early without any lag, it was almost impossible to get on the gas, look at the boost gauge and look at the rpm all at once, since I had to fight to keep her straight, I was only able to test at 20 psi of boost, the car comes alive very violent with plenty of power on demand.

I will drive it for a bit to get used to the new power and then I will see how she feels at 32 psi of boost, judging from my seat dyno I feel that I have finally found the perfect turbo for my combination, dyno runs and 1 mile run times will tell me the real true.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:32 AM
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Is the new turbo's hot side exducer and or A/R smaller? This could have an effect of increasing your exhaust to boost pressure ratio.

I think just putting a larger hot side on a K27-7200 turbo can add 5% or more to peak HP but it costs about 600rpm in boost response.

I had wondered if one of the reasons you could make so much HP was your larger more efficient hot side that may have traded low end response for high end power.

I do not know if this would show up in EGT's or not. It can be tested for by monitoring the pressure's in the header section.

Hope you get the best of both worlds. Look forward to any update or new dyno's.
Old 06-10-2010, 06:43 AM
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1 bar Juan....................

looks like we're both upgrading these days. although i'm still under the porch compared to you big dogs

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Old 06-10-2010, 02:46 PM
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wow Juan, looks like you found a good fit. When you say "billet 67 turbo" are tiy referring to Garrett's new GTX-R series?
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:04 PM
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911st

Both of them have a .81 hot housing

drmatera

Interesting please give us some feedback who knows maybe thats the one!

Natchamp

Is small compared to what I had but I think that new Garrett you mention is a counter attack to precision billet wheel design, I will try to get a photo but I was in a hurry to mount the thing,lol
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:57 PM
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Juan,

I have been very intrigued by your turbo conversion.

Do you mind sharing the compressor-inducer and turbine-exducer sizes for your old turbo?

I have seen your dyno plots and it would be very interesting. My guess is you old turbine-exducer is larger than your new turbo's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juan ruiz View Post
...

...
67mm compressor wheel
65mm turbine wheel ...
Are you sure those numbers might not be mixed up?


If you did:

67mm for a turbine-exducer is smaller than a GT-35's of 68mm.

65mm compressor-inducer would be substantially bigger than a GT-35's of 61.5mm.
Old 06-10-2010, 06:51 PM
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I was able to find more info on the turbo

Precision 6765 Turbo - Billet Compressor Wheel

Model: 6765
Power Class: 900hp
Compressor Wheel Diameter: 67mm
Turbine Wheel Diameter: 65mm

Turbine Housing Options
Mitsubishi DSM/Evo1-3 - .63 A/R
Buick - .63, .85
T3 4 Bolt - .63, .82
T3 5 Bolt - .63, .82
T3 V-Band - .63, .82
T4 V-Band - .58, .68, .81, .96
V-Band Inlet/Outlet - .82
T4 Divided V-Band - .84, 1.00, 1.15

The new CEA line of HP Technology Series turbos from Precision Turbo & Engine

Taking the ground breaking technology of the Garrett GT turbos one step further, Precision has engineered these turbos from the ground up to be the most efficient, most powerful turbochargers the aftermarket has ever seen.

Rated conservatively for about 900 crank horsepower by Precision. The 6765 turbo provides the same peak power as a GT4088 with much faster spool and better response.

Features:

Precision CNC machined billet compressor wheel with the latest in aerodynamic technology.

Air cooled center section, no water cooling required.

1/8" NPT oil inlet, no restrictor required.

Standard T3 oil drain flange.

Available with dual ceramic ball bearing or thrust bearing center section, choose below.



My former set up never before been disclosed!



Comparison between the Garrett VS Precision

Garrett GT4088R 701.94Whp 516.03Wtq
PTE Billet 6765 742.60Whp 513.60Wtq

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10.76@139-1/4 mile
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Rated conservatively for about 900 crank horsepower by Precision
LOL! Awesome!!
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:46 AM
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I'm sure theres a LOT of marketing hype in the entire equation BUT the real life reports are living up to the hype
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:33 AM
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Juan,

would this turbo be OK for a 3.6L ?
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:52 AM
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Looks like the 4088 spooled up quicker, but ran out of breath up top.

nice upgrade. I hop to see similar gains in peak power but also hoping for better spool up as well.... but wait, isn't that every turbocar's dream
Old 06-11-2010, 06:26 AM
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Cost drops in the CNC industry have really allowed billet compressor wheel technology to drive a revolution in the turbo market. The weight savings over cast are key to the improved boost response, but I also surmise that the vane profile design advantages imparted from 5 axis CNC machining are driving the biggest gains.

Now that it is cost feasible for tuners like AMS, Blouch, et al to design compressor wheels in relatively cheap and incredibly powerful tools like SolidWorks, simulate them on a computer, then cheaply cut test wheels, R&D costs are way down and time to market speed is way up. Additionally, 5 axis CNC allows vane design to incorporate negative draft vain designs impossible with die casting molds, which are brutally expensive to manufacture.

This is why we are seeing the market explode with packages that are smaller, faster and more efficient than anything we've seen prior. Your experience here is evidence of the same revolution across the market...tech that can allow a 2L motor make 400HP with a torque curve that looks like a small block V8 makes a 3.6L idle like a kitten and launch like a nitromethane funny car. We are moving into a golden era of turbo technology, driven by new tech allowing manufacturing processes, real time motor operating parameter manipulation and efficiencies never before possible.

With the abilities coming online to build efficient turbos, coupled with direct injection, variable valve timing and lift, the time is coming when there will be more turbo motors rolling of of assembly lines than NA. There was a time when Porsche wringed its hands at the theoretical operational displacement limit for a 6 cylinder motor and the implications on future 911 offerings and toying with the idea of a flat 8. The ability to make an efficient, powerful and completely transparent turbo motor of smaller displacement compete appears poised to ensure that we are driving flat-sixes for a long time to come.

It's a brave new world. Thanks to the turbo gods, indeed!
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:49 AM
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Good post Kenik.


It is interesting to see that the compressor inducer is larger than the turbine exducer.

Had not seen that much.
Old 06-11-2010, 07:39 AM
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Kenik

Amen Brother.................. HOWEVER, as you stated due to the cost, during my research, I had found out that MTU Diesel engines had the billet wheel technology long ago so I'm sure the roots are much deeper but is all good for all of us, Just think how far technology has taken us?

If we take our Diesel Engines we have some of them without camshaft, that's correct no camshaft if we go even further engines that run with natural gas, straight gas from the ground and the list is endless.

We still cant have a good cellular phone but we are certainly making a huge push in other aspects, especially in the Hot Rod world I have always said to install the biggest turbo that you can fit into the car, this new turbo is a wake up call and a blessing from the Turbo Gods;
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0-1 mile 193MPH
Old 06-11-2010, 08:33 AM
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Interesting stuff.
Am I reading that graph correctly; is this engine making <150HP @4500rpm and peak torque @ 6700rpm?
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:51 AM
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I have the precision billet turbo on my engine. I am just needing to get the car tuned again, and I will see what it does
Old 06-11-2010, 08:56 AM
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To dovetail off of your point on technology allowing deletion of previously necessary parts like the cams in diesels, BMWs latest turbos really are showing the future wave today. These cars have NO throttle bodies. Yep, that restrictive and disruptive bottlneck to clean airflow into the motor hase been deleted since BMW can now control all air metering AT THE INTAKE VALVE with their dual VANOS cam system. The benefits of this range of adjustability trickes down into all performance aspects of the motor.

IIRC, with this system, lift is a function of a dynamic actuator which is not directly dependent upon the camshaft itself. The camshaft becomes nothing more than a dumb valve actuator and gross parameter controller. With lift of the grind isolated from the power curve, it only imparts profile shape as a baseline curve, manipulated at the valve through a multiplier relationship with the lift mechanism. It becomes a simple reference component for mechanical lift potential and for mechanical energy transfer into a dynamic system. The camshaft is thus primarily supporting only the lobe spacing control in direct relation to the area of the base cam lobe profile when it comes to volumetric efficiency at a given RPM.

With this system, the cam can lift fast and low (assisted by the low reciprocating weight of 4 valve heads), easing mechanical wear and decreasing frictional losses to levels impossible to achieve just 2 years ago. As a side benefit, more power is transmitted to the driveline. More importantly, as overlap and lift are now computer driven parameters, an engine's behavior can be (within a range) dynamically tailored to suit high BMEP low in the RPM band to make big torque and instant boost response, then open things up on rev increase to allow big power production through scavenging and lift.

It's like having a nearly infinitely sliding performance scale that marries part of the efficiency of a 2 stroke, the off idle torque of an RV cam and the peak power of a 935 cam on the fly, on demand. This valvetrain trickery is the reason whay a 3.5L inline 6 in a new Bimmer can hit full boost by 1500 RPM and hold pressure to redline with a table flat torque curve the entire way. Where in the past, to get that low a boost threshold, you'd need a turbo that was too small to support the top end or a strangling cam, you can now trick a big turbo to act small, where you need it.

I only hope that one day the aftermarket will get the trickle down from the big boys, so us dinosaurs with air cooled motors can reap the benefits. With all of the advances we've discussed, if they'd been available in 1995, I think that we'd still be seeing air cooled 911s on showroom floors today. Porsche is not far behind BMW, so hopefully we'll see more soon in our favorite marque.

Good fun, eh?
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:27 AM
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strokher racing

I can't wait to see that car alive..........During this life

Brian, the graph is for a 4 Cly engine, I know that Evos, Hondas S2000 and Supras are running this turbo very successfully.

Kenik

Some Good Porn there! Car Porn that is

Now thinking out loud people are using NOS to spool the turbos out of the hole, Me thinking WHAT "IF" I install a small Injector alike very close to the turbo, I will then have a small air bottle with a pressure switch which I can activate the system from my steering wheel which will provide the air needed to spool the turbo with a timer and eventually will cut the air supply off at a certain time?

OR Maybe I'm drinking too much Diet Coke today!
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juan ruiz View Post
Some Good Porn there! Car Porn that is

Now thinking out loud people are using NOS to spool the turbos out of the hole, Me thinking WHAT "IF" I install a small Injector alike very close to the turbo, I will then have a small air bottle with a pressure switch which I can activate the system from my steering wheel which will provide the air needed to spool the turbo with a timer and eventually will cut the air supply off at a certain time?

OR Maybe I'm drinking too much Diet Coke today!
Air or NOS? If your goal is to increase hotside pressure, you aren't going to get there by simply blowing compressed air at the problem - not enough volume or storage capacity to be meaningful. I do recall reading about an experimental system years ago where they built a boost recovery system that loaded compressed air from an engine driven compressor into a pressure chamber that would augment pressures for the split seconds between shifts that pressure was unstable, but that system proved to be overly complex and heavy for the benefit.

In the past, "anti-lag" systems have used tweaked ignition timing and late fuel combustion to generate explosive pressure waves timed to optimal opening of the exhaust valve for transmission to the compressor, specifically to increase transient hotside pressures and subsequently reduce lag between shifts and at dile. The downsides are that the noise they produce is horrible and the violent combustive nature of the process demolishes the turbo in short order. These systems were generally used only in race cars that receive full teardown between races.

VTG has proven to be more reliable and as effective.

In terms of assisted rotation at idle, this is being addressed in other ways, most notably via "e-boosting", which uses an electric motor to spin the compressor when exhasut gas velocity is low. While dated, this 2006 interview summarizes the thinking that is beginning to find practice today:

Quote:
Originally Posted by interview with Garrett’s Martin Verschoor
E-boosting stands for electrical-assisted boosting; by incorporating a very high speed electrical motor in rotating assembly of a turbocharger, you can drive it up to very high speeds, before you have exhaust gases to do so. It is very powerful, specifically when there is no exhaust gas available, such as at idle, or in stop and go.

It is entirely integrated inside the turbocharger, with virtually “real-estate” penalty to speak of. The size of the electric motor is about an inch long. It makes the turbocharger an inch longer, with no impact on the timing and virtually no impact on the weight. The trick is to make electrical motors are capable of motoring more than 120,000 rpm and withstand mechanical loads in excess of 200,000 rpm – because turbos spin that fast.

The other challenge is to get enough electrical energy into their designs. The majority of cars use 12 volt or a 14-volt alternator.42 volt would be a significant help. But we believe that electric boost is feasible with 12-volt systems. The prospect is very real for electric boost. You will see it in premium diesels such as the Renault Aspach (sic) or the Peugeot A06 (in Europe). They have limited space and need lots of power density and bottom end. I also clearly see it in high-end gasoline engines, built for high performance.

I could imagine it in a (Chevrolet) Corvette or (Ford) Mustang Cobra like vehicle, having an electrical-assist turbo. If you go to 42 volt or a hybrid, e boosting would also allow very aggressive downsizing of the (IC) engine. This would allow very aggressive downsizing of the engine. Instead of applying a three-liter V6, you could apply a one-liter internal combustion engine, equipped with an electrical boost turbo plus an electric motor. You can only do extreme downsizing – 50 percent or more – with electrical assist turbocharging.
There are already units in test and production today:
Advanced Propulsion Technologies, Inc.
eBooster by BorgWarner Turbo & Emissions Systems

Link to the technical paper from B-W on their e-boost technology: http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/tools/download.aspx?t=document&r=138&d=325

The one thing that the "hybridization" of the world's car fleets is that electrical motor development for automotive applications has really accelerated.
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Last edited by kenikh; 06-11-2010 at 11:04 AM..
Old 06-11-2010, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by juan ruiz View Post
Brian, the graph is for a 4 Cly engine, I know that Evos, Hondas S2000 and Supras are running this turbo very successfully.
Man........I was going to ask if you were shifting that thing around 9000-9250.......LOL
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:05 AM
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