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AskewRSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: highlands, nc
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3.5 Andial motor is crap....

I have heard it for years but didn't believe it....now I do. I bought an 82 930 with an Andial built 3.5 liter motor. $22,900 build receipt from Andial. Motor has 6k miles on it. 2k of which are mine. Complete piece of trash... My machine shop says that the heads look like they have 200k miles on them. They have never seen cylinders this size diameter.... It turns out that Andial built a few Stroked 3.5 liter motors. Unfortunately, I have one. The cylinders are now trash...I talked to a friend and he informed me that he has two of these TRASH motors in his shop right now. Both lasted around 6k miles. WOW!!! Now I have to rebuild it... The motor has a 964 crank..... looking for P&C for this car.... Recently bought Keith's..Zuffenhaus...87 Marine Blue Factory Non Sunroof 930. I just want to put the 82 back together solidly for a sale. I want the engine to be solid for the next customer....I am using Martine Altologuire in atlanta. He is one of the most meticulous engine builders in the country. He is Furious about the build quality of this motor...If you are ever fortunate enough to drive a Martine Atlo engine....you will understand his attention to detail. He only builds 4 engines a year.... Dumbest thing I ever did was sell a 72 S with a 2.4 Maritine Alto engine.... A rocket ship..... Tate Askew
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1967 911 S Bahama Yellow
1971 911 S Gold Metallic. Peter Gregg
1974 911 RS Euro Metallic Blue Gold lettering
1991 Brumos 3.6 Turbo Pikes Peak Zwart Motor
1992 RWB 3.8 964 CLERMONT
Old 06-11-2010, 06:33 PM
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I know the feeling of uncovering a dodgy build so I feel your pain, I also think it's admirable that you're getting it built right for the next guy, many lesser men would just get it running. Good luck with the new project.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:49 PM
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Tate - I feel your pain. My 86 had a rebuilt motor from a well known local Porsche mechanic. I bought the car with 2k on it and it had an oil leak. That should have tipped me off, but I still bought the car as everything else seemed okay. 1k later I take the car to my mechanic for the oil leak and that was the road to a new rebuild.
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Bryan O.
77 930
08 Boxster
14 535i M Sport
Old 06-11-2010, 09:43 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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A job is only as good as the person doing it. The fancy name and big price tag mean nothing if the high school kid on summer break is doing the work.
Had a similar experience when I lived in Indy. These names become god-like in the community and unfortunately folks are either afraid or ashamed to admit they were taken by "the guru" so the name stays good. I no longer have anyone else do work for me but if I ever do the first question will be who is doing the work? We'll then have a come to jesus meeting before he touches my car.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 06-12-2010, 05:05 AM
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Wow..I feel your pain!! At least you are in great hands with your new engine builder..he sounds great! I always thought Andial were super reputed for these engine builds..did they not race these engines back in the 80s / 90s?

Yasin
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:18 AM
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I have a Andial 3.0 TP 1977 turbo motor that was rebuilt in 1999 -2000 with around 12,000 fairly hard miles since and is still doing fine. It had been built by them years ago but do not know how many miles between the original build and the current rebuild. It is not a maxed out no holds barred mega HP one but is around 350 crank HP @ 1.0 bar. It was @ 1.3 bar ( Andial said around 400 hp ) when I got it but after around 6000 miles I permantly set the boost to 1.0 bar.
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Anthony @ Voitureltd Bayside WI.

Last edited by voitureltd; 06-14-2010 at 11:27 AM..
Old 06-12-2010, 07:24 AM
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More info please and any pictures please.

What boost level was it run at?

Were the heads and cylinders junk because of the work or detonation?

Were there fins on the cylinders?

Was it a twin plug?

Was 91 octane fuel run and at what boost?

Any track time on the motor?

Did it have an Andial Fueler?


A stroked 3.4 for a 3.5 should be a nice motor in most cases. Because of fuel deliver limitations of CIS this type of build is really only to fill in the low and mid range of the power curve, not a motor to run any more HP than a built 3.3 would.

It dose run at a higher compression ratio than stock and needs a lot of fuel so the boost probably can not be run much past .8 bar or it would probably go lean.

Even the Andial Fueler is probably not going to keep it from going lean above about .8 bar at increased boost levels. 1 bar above 5500rpm would most likly kill this motor even with the fueler turned all the way up.

Just a guess.
Old 06-12-2010, 07:38 AM
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When it comes to fuel delivery:

A 3.0 at 1.1 bar is equal to about a 3.3 at 1 bar and a 3.5 at .8 bar.


When it comes to an effective on boost compression ratio:

A 3.0 at 1.1 bar is about 10.9/1.
A 3.3 at 1 bar of about 11/1.
A 3.5 long stroke at .8 bar of about 11/1.
A 3.5 LS at 1 bar of about 12/1.
Old 06-12-2010, 07:50 AM
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The statements above are a little confusing(at least to me). I'm running a 3.5 twin plug with stock CIS, stock WUR, SC cams, Mahle P&C at 7:1 compression. The motor dynoed at 380 crank h.p. at .09 boost, f/r was 12:1 to 6500 rpm. I was told I could occasionally run it up to 1.1 or 1.2 boost with no problems, which I have. The car came with a Andial fuel enrichement system which we removed. This is a street car.

Not to get off topic, I also feel your pain. I had 2 well know shops build my 3.4 race motor. The first time it lasted less than 2K miles, the second time less than 1,000 miles. Both failures were due to lousy work.
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumba View Post
The statements above are a little confusing(at least to me). I'm running a 3.5 twin plug with stock CIS, stock WUR, SC cams, Mahle P&C at 7:1 compression. The motor dynoed at 380 crank h.p. at .09 boost, f/r was 12:1 to 6500 rpm. I was told I could occasionally run it up to 1.1 or 1.2 boost with no problems, which I have. The car came with a Andial fuel enrichement system which we removed. This is a street car.

Not to get off topic, I also feel your pain. I had 2 well know shops build my 3.4 race motor. The first time it lasted less than 2K miles, the second time less than 1,000 miles. Both failures were due to lousy work.
So you're not running any fuel enrichment? What are your AFRs?
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Old 06-12-2010, 04:09 PM
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380CHP =~ 323WHP so stock WUR should be working fine if rebuilt or healthy.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:52 PM
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No fuel enrichments. A/F's are on the rich side. From 11:1 at 3500 rpm to 12:1 at 6500 rpm. Peak h.p was at 5500 rpm and peak torque was at 6500 rpm. The motor was built on the conservative side with all the CA. smog crap in place.
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Old 06-12-2010, 08:06 PM
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To be completely honest without knowing the complete history of how the car was driven before you received it you cannot blame the rebuild.

Not ruling out a bad rebuild but who knows how the thing was driven the first 4k miles and at what boost/afrs/fuel, etc./etc.
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Old 06-13-2010, 05:32 AM
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Stock 3.0 has 6.5/1 compression ratio, 3.3 is 7/1, 3.5 w 100mm pistons is 7/1 or 7.5/1 depending on which P&C is used, a 3.4 Turbo P&C with 3.6 crank can be around 8/1 CR. Thus, the 3.0 can safely run the most boost before detonation might occure. 1 bar boost is equal to about 4 points of compession increase. Thus, a 7/1 CR motor at 1 bar is running an effecitive CR of near 11/1.

Then there is the fuel system limitation:

390-400chp is reported to be the limit for a stock system as to fuel delivery. 12/1 can be ideal if the CIS is in good shape, it is delivering ballanced fuel, and or it is mostly street work.

With the Andial fueler you can get about 1 point higher AFR or about 8-10% more fuel and support maybe up to about 450chp on a street motor.

There are other factors at work. Timing, intercooler effectiveness, ambent temp, Turbo efficency and capacaty.

Having said that a well built 3.5 with an efficent turbo should make more like 450chp at .9 bar.

There is one well respected builder here that on his 3.5, twin plug, SC cam, build sets boost at .7 bar and it makes 450chp.

He sets the boost at .7 bar because that is the fuel delivery limit and that is after he has shimed the fuel dist pressure and modified the metering arm pivot for more fuel. With this he can bump compression to 8/1 for a bit better low end.

Hope this is a little clearer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gumba View Post
The statements above are a little confusing(at least to me). I'm running a 3.5 twin plug with stock CIS, stock WUR, SC cams, Mahle P&C at 7:1 compression. The motor dynoed at 380 crank h.p. at .09 boost, f/r was 12:1 to 6500 rpm. I was told I could occasionally run it up to 1.1 or 1.2 boost with no problems, which I have. The car came with a Andial fuel enrichement system which we removed. This is a street car.

Not to get off topic, I also feel your pain. I had 2 well know shops build my 3.4 race motor. The first time it lasted less than 2K miles, the second time less than 1,000 miles. Both failures were due to lousy work.
Old 06-13-2010, 06:19 AM
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Hey Tate,
I feel your pain and frustration. Hey do a search for Andial Problem and see my thread. It will make you laugh and smile. Again I know how these things can bring a brother down but a couple years from now you will be on to bigger and better things and laugh about it. Cheers
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Old 06-13-2010, 03:39 PM
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