Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
Turbo on a 3.0

I've searched and searched for a thread that discusses putting a turbo setup on an SC with a 3.0 motor. I don't know, maybe the search isn't working right because I get zilch.

So forgive me for asking a question that I'm certain has been asked already: what do I need to add a turbo to my 3.0, and what precautions should I take? I called Brian at RarlyL8 today, and he was very helpful (thanks Brian). But since I'm starting at the beginning I hesitate to tie a business owner up on the phone for an inordinate amount of time trying to explain stuff to me that I can easily learn on this forum.

The suggestion was to utilize a low-boost turbo, like the K27S, if I don't plan on rebuilding the engine.

How much $$ can I expect to spend for a street application? $6K? More? 300hp-ish sounds decent to me, at least for now . I'd at least like to be able to out-run my Audi; something I can't do right now...

__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-07-2010, 07:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 14,082
Garage
Here is the thread I referred you to:

911SC Turbo

Lots of ways to go about building an SC with Turbocharger. Most important is to line out your goals and budget.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-07-2010, 08:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Happiest when Tinkering
 
gsmith660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,182
Anything can be done Brian is very helpful he got me on the slippery slope as well as Ben of M&K exhaust who gave some helpful suggestions and supplied some parts I needed. Mine is a 2.7 and running well, very fun to drive. I used a stock turbo and euro exhaust went with a Tial wastegate. Some things you should consider to ensure decent engine life: EFI (I used a megasuqirt kit supplied by Tony Bitz), a better ignition (I used EDIS controlled by the Megasquirt ECU), an intercooler, and I added a blow off valve and the drivability went through the roof. I limit my boost to .5 bar (7 psi) and drain oil back to the engine sump.
__________________
" Porsche there is no substitute" I always liked that saying. Air cooled is the only way to go!
76 911 C.R.A.P. Gruppe #2 BIG time TURBO C.R.A.P. Bitz EFI/EDIS Now MegaSquirt 3
76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 07-08-2010, 04:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
Quote:
Lots of ways to go about building an SC with Turbocharger. Most important is to line out your goals and budget.
Thanks for the thread link, Brian. Not sure why I couldn't find it...

I
Quote:
used a stock turbo and euro exhaust went with a Tial wastegate. Some things you should consider to ensure decent engine life: EFI (I used a megasuqirt kit supplied by Tony Bitz), a better ignition (I used EDIS controlled by the Megasquirt ECU), an intercooler, and I added a blow off valve and the drivability went through the roof. I limit my boost to .5 bar (7 psi) and drain oil back to the engine sump.
This sounds very cool! Off to do some pricing research.

Thanks for the help guys!
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-08-2010, 08:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
Okay, so this my list of required items:

The turbo itself: a K27S (or stock 930)
A 'J pipe' (for the waste gate)
An electronic ignition system (like maybe that xDI system? Would that work here?)
An EFI system for the injection (Megasquirt)
A waste gate
Exhaust system--will the SSI headers w/ heat exchangers work for this application or should I stick with 930 headers? That's the next purchase on my list of stuff (jeez this car is a money pit ...good thing I didn't pay much for it).
An intercooler. This one confuses me. It seems like the price for an intercooler varies pretty widely. I see OEM 930 intercoolers for as much as $4k, and used ones for as low as $400. Any advice there?

The blow off valve I don't really understand yet.

Thanks much.
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-08-2010, 10:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sjf911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,727
Garage
A 930 "J" pipe should go right on your old stock exhaust if you still have it. This is what you would bolt your turbo and wastegate to. Megasquirt can run both your fuel injection and ignition. This is easy to do using a Ford EDIS-6 controller and coil pack controlled by MS. I think I paid all of 25 dollars for an assortment of EDIS parts at a local U-pick auto recycler.
A big impediment is the CIS mass airflow sensor and getting silicone or equivalent boots to fit without leaking or blowing off with boost and then being able to deal with the necessary fueling enrichment. Converting to EFI with a 3.2 intake manifold makes this much easier but dramatically increases the cost and imposes a considerable time burden for tuning.
Unless you convert to the 930 intake manifold, the stock intercooler will be difficult to use without considerable alteration. I used an inexpensive 12X12 side to side inter-cooler with my first iteration and it worked well with the 3.2 manifold.
You might be able to source a "Y-pipe" for converting your SSI's to a turbo configuration, this has been done.
What ever you do, I highly recommend getting a wide-band O2 sensor/controller with a cockpit gauge to monitor your AFR's.
__________________
Steve
Sapere aude
1983 3.4L 911SC turbo. Sold
Old 07-08-2010, 03:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Happiest when Tinkering
 
gsmith660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,182
Before I would go with SSI's I would look into one of Brians exhaust (headers and Y pipe) price is probably closer than you think. Oh and I would source a 3.2 intake but if you had to you could do one of Tony Bitz (bitzracing.com) clean install where you cut your CIS airbox down to just the throttle body no popoff valve or at least check it for leakage at say 15 psi.
__________________
" Porsche there is no substitute" I always liked that saying. Air cooled is the only way to go!
76 911 C.R.A.P. Gruppe #2 BIG time TURBO C.R.A.P. Bitz EFI/EDIS Now MegaSquirt 3
76 Blazer also restored by me

Last edited by gsmith660; 07-08-2010 at 06:36 PM..
Old 07-08-2010, 06:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
Quote:
A big impediment is the CIS mass airflow sensor and getting silicone or equivalent boots to fit without leaking or blowing off with boost and then being able to deal with the necessary fueling enrichment. Converting to EFI with a 3.2 intake manifold makes this much easier but dramatically increases the cost and imposes a considerable time burden for tuning.
Oh boy...so it's more complicated than simply installing the EFI, the turbo, intercooler, and waste gate...good thing I have a lot of spare time on my hands.
Quote:
Oh and I would source a 3.2 intake but if you had to you could do one of Tony Bitz (bitzracing.com) clean install where you cut your CIS airbox down to just the throttle body no popoff valve or at least check it for leakage at say 15 psi.
Is this the CIS to Partial EFI kit?
Quote:
Before I would go with SSI's I would look into one of Brians exhaust (headers and Y pipe) price is probably closer than you think.
I didn't realize. I'll look into that. My old exhaust heater boxes are rusty and falling apart faster than the Nevada real estate market, so they need replacing soon.
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-08-2010, 07:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Happiest when Tinkering
 
gsmith660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewport View Post

Is this the CIS to Partial EFI kit?
Yes if you went to his website it is the partial kit if you get his kit I would highly recommend 42 lbs/hr injectors or maybe even higher than the 30 lbs/hr he suggests to support higher hp later at times I am at 20-30 % duty cycle with 30 lbs/hr injectors now also now I would also suggest a higher capacity fuel press. reg. also mine is keeping up but I dont know for how long as next summer I will start working on my other 2.7 specifically to turbo and bump up the boosy some.
__________________
" Porsche there is no substitute" I always liked that saying. Air cooled is the only way to go!
76 911 C.R.A.P. Gruppe #2 BIG time TURBO C.R.A.P. Bitz EFI/EDIS Now MegaSquirt 3
76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 07-09-2010, 03:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
So if it's between replacing the intake system to the CIS to Partial EFI or changing my manifold over to a 930 or 3.2, which is the better way to go? I found a 930 manifold for $350. The Bitz kit is $1400-ish. Does one give better performance over the other?
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-10-2010, 12:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 14,082
Garage
You can purchase an entire 930 CIS system for $1000 (manifold alone is $100). That will allow you to use stock parts which keeps cost down and fabrication to a minimum. Down side is aging components.
EFI is custom so plan on cost overruns and lots of obstacles. Up side is precise system control.
Late model 930 exhaust is least expensive option but not best design. Headers run from $600 Chinese to $4000 custom. Mine are in the middle cost wise.
Intercoolers run from $75 for a stock one (if using 930 CIS) to $3000 custom EFI/Carrera. Mine are in the middle cost wise.
Turbos run from $100 for a good 3LDZ to $1300 for a K27 or Garrett. 3LDZ is a laggy turbo, K27 is a bolt on if using stock 930 equipment, Garrett requires fabrication and oil feed modification if using stock 930 equipment.

I get the feeling you could spend a lot more to do this than is required. A clear list of build requirements will reduce this likelihood. The number one question is do you prefer custom and EFI or bolt-on 930 components?
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8

Last edited by RarlyL8; 07-10-2010 at 01:54 PM..
Old 07-10-2010, 01:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
Quote:
You can purchase an entire 930 CIS system for $1000 (manifold alone is $100). That will allow you to use stock parts which keeps cost down and fabrication to a minimum. Down side is aging components. EFI is custom so plan on cost overruns and lots of obstacles. Up side is precise system control.
Late model 930 exhaust is least expensive option but not best design.
This is kind of what I suspected. Like everything in life, there's no free lunch. I'm prepared to spend what I need to spend to do this right, and if the Blitz setup is a better choice I'll go that route. Since I'm still at the learning stage though, it's best to ask first and open the wallet later.

Quote:
Late model 930 exhaust is least expensive option but not best design. Headers run from $600 Chinese to $4000 custom. Mine are in the middle cost wise.
I won't be purchasing Chinese headers. As a small business owner I'd prefer to support another American small business. I'm guessing I'll need 930 headers, new heater boxes (mine are pretty rusty), and a 930 style muffler? Kind of funny, I didn't want to bug you and run you into the ground with questions before making a purchase, yet here we are discussing it on the forum .

I confess I'm a little confused about the heat setup when running a turbo...

Quote:
Turbos run from $100 for a good 3LDZ to $1300 for a K27 or Garrett. 3LDZ is a laggy turbo, K27 is a bolt on if using stock 930 equipment, Garrett requires fabrication and oil feed modification if using stock 930 equipment.
Thanks so much for that bit of information. I see a lot of chatter about the K27's, but also lots of criticism because it's an older design. Everyone has their opinions, but when you're new to the subject it's difficult to sort through everything and settle on what works for your setup.

Quote:
The number one question is do you prefer custom and EFI or bolt-on 930 components?
Probably bolt-on 930 stuff, but if the Blitz system gives a better response with a turbo I'm willing to spend the $$.

Quote:
I get the feeling you could spend a lot more to do this that is required.
Me too. Fortunately, I have a solid back-up if all else fails
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-10-2010, 02:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 8,118
What about a complete exhaust minus muffler of an 87? I've still got mine for sale. 52k on it.


Old 07-10-2010, 02:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 7,269
Something to consider, sell the SC motor and buy a good used 930 motor. Or, cheaper still, sell the SC 911 and but a good used 930 with big brakes, proper oil cooling capacaty...

Also better for resale later and a lot less teething issues.

Sense you have an 83 and if you opt for a 930 motor you want to try to make it a a USA 85-94 motor if smoging might be a potential issue for you or the next owner.
Old 07-10-2010, 02:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sjf911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,727
Garage
There are a couple of significant issues that swapping out for a 930 motor solves. One is the turbo oil scavenge setup. The 930 motor has a mechanical scavenge pump driven off of the front of the left camshaft. This is difficult to reproduce on a stock 3.0 and might optimally require swapping out to a 930 or sportamatic oil tank for the scavenge connections.
Second is the engine oil scavenge itself. The 930 has a much better oil pump. A lot of people including myself return the turbo oil to the engine scavenge side (sump) probably exacerbating the already marginal scavenge capacity of the 3.0 oil pump.
This makes one argument for the GT35R because of greatly reduced oil throughput in that turbo.
__________________
Steve
Sapere aude
1983 3.4L 911SC turbo. Sold
Old 07-10-2010, 03:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
I don't think there's any way I'm going to be able to purchase a 930 or 930 motor for anywhere close to what I'd spend to make this conversion happen on a 3.0. Every 930 I see for sale is upwards of $24k. Every 930 motor I see is usually $7k and higher. I think I'd prefer to adapt a 3.0 because it's less expensive and I can put it back to stock if I need to.
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-10-2010, 06:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mnewport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 286
Garage
Quote:
This makes one argument for the GT35R because of greatly reduced oil throughput in that turbo.
What sort of fab work needs to be done to use the GT35R?

Also, what about that Aerocharger?
__________________
The Uncertainty Principle. It proves we can't ever really know...what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you. Not being able to figure anything out. Although you will be responsible for this on the mid-term. -Larry Gopnik
Old 07-10-2010, 06:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 14,082
Garage
The GT35R is too big to slap on an SC engine. If going Garrett the GT30 would be a better fit.
Garretts do not have the same oiling requirements as KKK/BW turbos. If you do not plan on using the stock 930 turbo oiling system then you can plumb specifically for the Garrett.

The Aerocharger system might be a viable option as you have to purchase the entire exhaust system anyway. The cost is a bit high but that is for you to decide. Characteristics look to be very different than a typical turbo.

Because you have an SC engine you have the advantage of larger heads and of course SC cams. Both a plus for turbocharging. The higher C/R is good as well because it is not too high and you can still run some boost. Don't get greedy and you'll have a fun car. Keeping the SC engine and adapting a turbo will be all about taking advantage of the SC's components. You'll want a turbo and exhaust system that is complementary to enhancing the current power band. The tbitz EFI with a low threshold turbo and free flowing exhaust should make for a very responsive and powerful ride.

Swaping to a 3.3L 930 engine is iffy as far as money is concerned. Yes you can buy a 930 engine for $8K and sell your SC engine for maybe $4K. You will easily spend the same $4K turbocharging your SC engine. Problem is the 930 engine you buy will likely be stock or close to it. Then you will want to change the turbo, exhaust, intercooler, etc and spend a whole lot more money. To make that (math) work you have to buy a known good 930 engine that has the goodies already on it.
You can also remove all the turbo stuff if/when you sell the car, then sell the system.

Sell SC and buy 930 will cost you $10K-$15K difference.

Consider the tranny as well. The 915 is a quick ratio fun box for the street where a 930 4spd begs to hit the interstate. If you bolt a turbo on the stock SC engine the 915 should handle the increased power and torque.

I don't mind phone calls and emails asking questions, I enjoy this stuff!
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-10-2010, 06:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Happiest when Tinkering
 
gsmith660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewport View Post
So if it's between replacing the intake system to the CIS to Partial EFI or changing my manifold over to a 930 or 3.2, which is the better way to go? I found a 930 manifold for $350. The Bitz kit is $1400-ish. Does one give better performance over the other?
With the Bitz system you need to modify your existing intake system it doesn't supply an intake, I have a 930 intake and phenolic blocks that I would sell for 100 bucks but using a 930 intake requires some machining to the injector ports the best intake for this app. is the 3.2 intake. There may be another way to do the megasuirt but Tony's kit makes it almost turn key you just supply the regulator and the injectors.
__________________
" Porsche there is no substitute" I always liked that saying. Air cooled is the only way to go!
76 911 C.R.A.P. Gruppe #2 BIG time TURBO C.R.A.P. Bitz EFI/EDIS Now MegaSquirt 3
76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 07-11-2010, 07:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 7,269
A stock 930 motor with a cheap straight through muffler will make more HP than a budget low boost SC motor if that matters.

There is more to turboing than the motor. Brakes, suspension, tires, limited slip... should be considered to maintain a safe and balanced set up. Then there is a differance between a stressed turbo SC and a understressed 930 motor.

If money is a concern the cheapest is going to be a full 930 take off as Brian notes. I forget but I think you will not be able to use the 930 dist.

You can also build a low boost budget system using the stock SC ignition and intake. If you have the SC dist that has a vac tube to both sides it can easily be converted to retard timing on boost with just a plumbing change.

On the intake side, most build a suck through like on the 930.

However you could do a blow through which, in my opinion, has some potential advantages. First is easer to plumb. Just put an air cleaner on the turbo and run a pressure tube up to where the air cleaner is. Make a plate to replace the air cleaner lid and attach it to the pressure tube and you are mostly done.

It should have less lag as there will be no restriction on the turbo intake trying to suck through the metering sustem and several feet of plumbing. Should not have to do much more than bump the CO/AFR up to 250hp or so. More than that and you may have to play with lowering control pressure and or bumping system pressure (adding a simple shim).

As to boost. A late SC runs 9.3/1 compression. If you run about 4psi boost it would be like running a stock 7/1 compression 930 at stock boost.

If you run 6 psi it would be like running a 930 at 1 bar. If you go there you will need a good intercooler.

Assuming a stock SC makes 200hp. That should give you about about 250 to 280hp.

I would guess a stock 930 motor with sport muffler .9 bar boost and a little adjustment should be in the 330hp range or about 50hp with lot more room for future growth if desired and money latter allows.

Just my two cents worth.

Old 07-11-2010, 07:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:44 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.