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porsche 930 turbo newbie questions, ..help needed

ok, i just picked up a 1980 euro spec 930 3.3lt turbo a few months back..

i am new to porsche turbo cars, BUT not new to turbos, i currectly have a 400+HP wrx/sti with built motor, turbo, standalone etc,...





i have a left over brand new 46mm tial wastegate, with .9 bar spring

will this part bolt on? what is the stock boost? is the .9 spring to high?

i have a brand new dual ball bearing gt3071 garret, is this something i can bolt onto the porsche,..

the porsche already has a zork tube and wastegate tube...

i guess i dont understand how and what has to be done to upgrade the porsche, with the wrx, its turbo, injectors, bigger fuel pump, standalone, and a lot of computer tuning

with bolting the parts onto the 930, with no computer is my understanding, how the does the engine make up for more air and etc from upgrades, without adjusting or replacing anything else,..

im sorry for these stupid questions, but its something i am really trying to understand before i make any changes
Old 07-18-2010, 05:49 PM
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Welcome!
The 930 has a mechanical fuel injection system that when healthy can handle about 375WHP before modifications become necessary. There is tons of info here. Use the search engine and look for "adjustable WUR" and "modified fuel head". That should yield a few hundred threads, ha!
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:04 PM
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RarlyLB

sounds like your saying, throw on a bigger turbo, or increase the boost and nothing to worry about. no tunning needed.? Or am I interpreting it wrong? Please clarify.

I come from the EVO community and 400 WHP out of a 2 liter is nothing to raise a eyebrow about. Minimal Stanard bolt ons, but it has to be tuned correctly though.

Last edited by dhg1337; 07-18-2010 at 09:24 PM..
Old 07-18-2010, 09:06 PM
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Remember here though you are talking about an air-cooled car that is almost 30 years old. Its a different animal than a modern computer controlled car. Yes, most guys do the "stage 1" without any real tuning necessary. K27 HF turbo, 1 bar boost spring, bigger intercooler, open exhaust. After that you start looking into modifying the factory Mechanical fuel injection. But up to about 380-400HP, the mechanical will flow plenty of fuel. The mechanical is capable of flowing enough fuel in the big 600+HP cars, but as some have said in other posts it is a very inefficient delivery. If you want serious boost and power the general consensus is a twin-plug car with an aftermarket EFI, unless you are going for a 100% authentic 935 replica.

Oh, and BTW your euro-spec car has a few pro's and con's

pro: Its lighter than the US SPEC EPA loaded car, and has a lighter fly wheel setup and better gear ratios (US Cars had to meet EPA emissions and got crappy ratios up top)

Con: you have the older euro dash with little tiny air vents and blower. I live in Germany and can tell you over there summer is a joke compared to places like texas. If ya live somewhere hot, look into an after market AC unit. Also grey market cars do not usually have the value of a US Spec.

my bro and dad both have euro spec cars, and these are little things they have run into.

Last edited by Groovie Ghoulie; 07-19-2010 at 12:09 AM..
Old 07-19-2010, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtweet View Post
ok, i just picked up a 1980 euro spec 930 3.3lt turbo a few months back..

i have a left over brand new 46mm tial wastegate, with .9 bar spring

will this part bolt on? what is the stock boost? is the .9 spring to high?

i have a brand new dual ball bearing gt3071 garret, is this something i can bolt onto the porsche,..

the porsche already has a zork tube and wastegate tube...

with bolting the parts onto the 930, with no computer is my understanding, how the does the engine make up for more air and etc from upgrades, without adjusting or replacing anything else,..

im sorry for these stupid questions, but its something i am really trying to understand before i make any changes
Sweet STi...very sweeet!

Stock boost 0.8 bar
TiAL 46mm is a direct bolt on. 0.9 spring not too high..but double check with your LM1..which I am sure you have.

Mechanical metering of air to address air flow and mixtures.

I am unaware of the turbine flange bolt hole spacing on the gt3071, if it matches the KLDZ turbo then try it but set the boost stock first and again data log with your LM1 first before tweaking the boost levels. Euro cars flow more fuel due to their larger orifices in the fuel heads compared to the choked up US cars (hence part of the 300hp vs 282 difference).

Welcome to the board, post pics or we will ban you for eternity...and we all know you know how to post pics!!!
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:37 AM
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Oh, and for what its worth my buddy has a WRX of the same year as yours, his is less tuned though, Cold air intake, short throw shifter, and full exhaust system. He gets the hole shot with AWD and all that, but as soon as the 930 gets its lungs full it catches up and walks away. So yeah, these cars are light and fast. With just a little tuning they can be fierce. I think mine makes around 320ish at the flywheel, but i have never Dyno'd it or anything.
Old 07-19-2010, 12:37 AM
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Welcome, my advice would be to get some seat time as driving this car is nothing like the AWD cars. Remember slow into the turns and fast out. Enjoy it and do your mod`s, we all end up going down the slippery slope....
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:34 AM
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Bet that WRX is a blast to drive, but where are the pics of the 930????
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:00 AM
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ill get some pics up of both cars later tonight,...

i would like 340-380whp reliable, and that i can hop in and drive anywhere and not have to worry...

i do about 3-4 track days a year, so its more street performance..i just have these parts laying around, not being used, so figured why not ask...

i have about 3500 miles of seat time on this thing, been driving it just about everyday, everywhere i can, i love it, but i am sorry, it still cant compare to the wrx, but then again the wrx had over 40k invested into it
Old 07-19-2010, 08:16 AM
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Mostly a 930 is old tec but the concepts are the same.

Better intercooling, larger more efficient turbo, freer flowing exhaust.

The motor is intake port limited and the cams are basically an RV TQ cam. Great for street work but limit gross HP potential.

CIS uses a pretty restrictive metering system that slows turbo response so lag is a thing that is lived with.

However your limitations as noted is the gross fuel delivery of CIS, the mechanical limits of the motor that will only allow so much pressure in the cylinders before the heads start to lift, and the thermal limits of an air cooled motor. Most limit there boost to .9 bar w the stock IC or 1 bar on a built motor.

AFR's are kept a little fat because CIS dose not have any real adaption capability and is not the best at balanced fueling per cylinder.

If you want a 500hp motor you might look to an EFI conversion right up front to keep from doing things twice.

Good luck.

Last edited by 911st; 07-19-2010 at 08:32 AM..
Old 07-19-2010, 08:26 AM
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The clasic build is biger turbo, SC cams, 36mm ports, straight through muffler, bigger intercooler then dyno to verify enough fuel and shim the Fuel Distribuitor system pressure reg if needed and run .9 bar.

Should be good for about 350-375whp. Run some race fuel on the track. Might need more oil cooling capacaty. Some change the pully on the motor fan for more cooling air.

One can make 425+ whp with some head work and CIS fueling mods. 500whp on EFI w a GT35.
Old 07-19-2010, 08:38 AM
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I agree that the basic mods are all tried and true and will give you a very enjoyable and reliable car but, I recommend that you first verify the condition of your engine, Perform a leak down test, Adj. your valves and check for broken head studs, Fuel filter and check your fuel system pressures/ adj. CO , Verify your Ignition timing. BTW welcome to the thread, wish you best of luck with your new turbo.

Lou / AERO DYNAMICS
Old 07-19-2010, 08:55 AM
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What Lou said. Verify what you have and monitor during changes.
There is generally no tuning needed under 375WHP but that takes for granted you are starting with a healthy system. 30 year old fuel heads and warm up regulators can be dodgy, especially the WUR. When pumping up the HP it is a good idea to have your WUR rebuilt and modified to be fully adjustable.
Your goal of 340-380WHP is achievable with bolt-ons alone. Much more and you'll need to go inside the engine.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovie Ghoulie View Post
Yes, most guys do the "stage 1" without any real tuning necessary. K27 HF turbo
K27-1111, K27-7006, K27-7200, K27-7200-'S' turbos are 'stage 1', but HyFlow K27s ('HF' and 'HFS'), K27/K29 hybrids, K29s and GT35s blow more air than stock CIS can supply fuel for...

I asked Kevin (the guy who made the K27 HFS, as sold by IA) about fitting a HyFlow on reduced boost pressure and stock Euro FuelHead - "NO!!" was his strongly-worded, simple advice!

As for answering the question about how it's all done without a computer, the WUR (Warm-Up Regulator) simply supplies fuel enrichment according to the Boost Pressure and pays no attention to volume of air being pumped into the cylinders, this is why certain AWUR (Adjustable WUR) and DWUR (Digital WUR) systems have become popular in recent times for those not going the whole hog with EFI.
Old 07-19-2010, 10:06 AM
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I carry those now (k27 variants) and yes you won't be using the full potential of the HF/HFS until more air and fuel are available than offered stock. Best fit for a stock engine is the turbos listed as your "stage 1".
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-19-2010, 11:44 AM
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I very much like the K27-7200 turbo on a 930 and you will not find it for less than Brian can sell it for.

I gave up my prototype HF which cost me some HP up top but it was a lof of fun and comes on hard and fast.

Porsche knew what it was doing when it spec'd the K27-7200 for the 91 and later Turbos.

It runs out of air at about the same time as the fuel system runs out of fuel. It is fastest to full boost of the bunch listed. A great driver's turbo. However, it maxes out at about 360whp on CIS.
Old 07-19-2010, 05:48 PM
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What we see is that on "common" builds the K27-7200 and K27S run to 375WHP on a stock fuel head and adjustable WUR. Change to an HF or HFS and add a modified fuel head will bump to 400WHP. The power curve is moved about 400rpm to the right.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:08 PM
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OK, my 'about 360whp' max v 375whp.

Probably depends on the dyno and a couple of other small factors but the 7200 is mostly out of its efficiency range at 375whp and a larger turbo at that point should be good for another 20-30hp, at the same boost levels.

I believe the small 58mm turbine exducer basically chokes keeping the compressor wheel from achieving its full potential. Takes a larger turbine to let the compressor wheel spin up a bit or a larger compressor wheel that moves more air before the turbine's hits its choke point.

I think I peaked out at 365whp at 12.2/1 AFR on a dyno where the hubs are bolted to the dyno running SC cams, ports, very large Andial C2 / S2 intercooler and the other typical goodies. Just could not get it to hold boost above .9 bar, even with a EBC locking down the waste gate.

Last edited by 911st; 07-20-2010 at 06:54 AM..
Old 07-19-2010, 09:27 PM
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The HP limit of a turbo depends on many things. There is no absolute. I've seen a 7200 north of 375WHP on a modified engine. A turbo change blew past that number but it demonstrates the range of what is possible even though not optimal. Modified blurs things so I use stock as a baseline.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:08 AM
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375whp/425-440whp!

Wow, then the K27-7200 is even better than most have though!

If the 7200 can do that there is not much reason to go beyond that except for a monster build.

I was very happy with the 7200 on my heavily built 91T.
Old 07-20-2010, 07:26 AM
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