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wjfk32's Avatar
 
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I personally, run a HKS/AIC- 7TH injector,-in the intercooler down into the throttle body. I have my car dialed in real good. Yes- I understand it isn't an even flow through the manifold-BLAH-BLH. I rather run a little rich than lean...and that would be the end of my engine(poof).
It did take some time to get it just right. My plugs look great and the power is right.

Yes-EFI is the best way and takes $$$$. Yes- there are better solutions.
I don't want to spend the xtra $$$$ for a car that is only driven on some weekends and 60-130mph runs once in awhile-no track time. The car runs just fine for what it is. My car is plenty fast..Could it be faster--probably..I know myself, I will keep pushing that button until I break something or be killed. Thats what I am trying to avoid............................for now.




Walt

Last edited by wjfk32; 09-01-2010 at 08:48 AM..
Old 09-01-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
.................. Old school Miller Woods and other 7th injectors do something additional for CIS sort of like a carburetor. Just change out the lb rate injector for += fuel flow instead of jets for some fine AFR tuning as in the early days. Still would like to know, since it has not been addressed yet, stock size injectors with no other fuel delivery for 447 thirsty horses seems incredible. I need 55lb injectors with fuel rails to get enough fuel delivery in a 3.4 motor @ 15psi. with 450 +-HP. Another 3.5 motor needs 85 lb injectors of fuel delivery to support 24psi 650+ HP
Tony,

Are you saying the Miller Woods worked on a 100% duty cycle principle?

I have long time thought that a 7th injector that only operated at a 100% duty cycle would probably work safely. The problem with a typical 7th injector is it only makes about one squirt of added fuel each time the crank turns, give or take. Thus, making for a potentally uneven distribution of fuel per cylinder.

Run at 100% and there should be mostly even distribuition and maybe even some intercooling effect.

Last edited by 911st; 09-02-2010 at 05:42 PM..
Old 09-01-2010, 09:52 AM
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You may be running rich... but on a few cylinders ... while #4 for example, is lean.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:13 AM
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I keep the 7th injector on for "safety".
It necessarily doesn't need to be on.
No pinging- air fuel ratio is approx. at 11.5 at 1bar spring/on cold days....
I did a top end build back in 1994.
8 months ago-I put in new injectors,denso's,msd6al/coil,fuel filter/accumulator/front oil cooler.etc.etc. The car is rocket and smooth.......................................
From my experience. Once you play around with boost over 1bar-and not enough fuel, u will see problems. My mechanic owns his shop for over 10 yrs. and is an x-porsche mechanic. I gave alot of my time on weekends and years to learn.

Any type of CIS/ enrichement aid approaches is not fully managed, unless its EFI/motronic. Thats the only true management system. INMOP.

Walt
Old 09-01-2010, 12:04 PM
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Right, but your AFRs cylinder-to-cylinder are wonky.
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Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-01-2010, 12:24 PM
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unfortunatly it takes money to have headers just for tunning purpose and having 6 wide band O2 sensors on each hedder tube or 6 egt probes. Untill then how will you trully know ?
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:48 PM
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WONKY, SNONKY..........................

Its old school what do u want........
Well- my WONKY car did walk a zo6 from 40-115mph give or take---Did 2 runs..so it wasn't a mistake/wonky.....

Did get a thumbs up from the corvette driver.....Not bad eh...

Walt
Old 09-01-2010, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esotoracing View Post
unfortunatly it takes money to have headers just for tunning purpose and having 6 wide band O2 sensors on each hedder tube or 6 egt probes. Untill then how will you trully know ?
Right, And unless you can tune each injector based on that feedback I would say you have just as much or more chance of leaning out "higher flowing" runners running injectors in each port spraying the same volume as you would spraying fuel in the plenum and letting the runner take the fuel with it as it goes. The higher flowing runners would pull more fuel than the worse flowing runners..

Basically since none of our engines run in a perfect environment under perfect control by the perfect computer with perfect balanced fuel rails / injectors and spark plug wires with the exact same resistance and spark plugs that spark with the exact same intensity and zero slop in the timing chains with blue printed cams and Bla Bla Bla I don't see how anyone can make the broad statement that someone else is doing it wrong.
Old 09-01-2010, 02:55 PM
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there's a whole lotta "theory" bullies on this site
Old 09-01-2010, 02:57 PM
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My fuel system is stock with the addition of a modified fuel metering head. No leaky or suspect injectors or parts anywhere $$$$ As i said before my AFRs are on the limit of safe operation. Running too rich costs power and running too lean costs money! Craig 930RS from your short vid your car looks similar to the one on youtube racing a yellow vette z06. Is that your car?
Old 09-01-2010, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esotoracing View Post
unfortunatly it takes money to have headers just for tunning purpose and having 6 wide band O2 sensors on each hedder tube or 6 egt probes. Untill then how will you trully know ?
In the old days we removed the spark plugs and looked at the color. If you know how to do that it's pretty accurate.

To visually read the mixture in each cylinder more accurately at high rpms shut off the motor at high rpms, put it in nuetral and coast to a stop before removing and reading the plugs.
Old 09-01-2010, 03:57 PM
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Interesting stuff, JF.

I was just thinking the other day about the practicalities of daisy-chaining together 6 WB Sensors into the headers - ideally you'd want each sensor somewhere in a ten-to-two position (which would mean being pretty low down on the manifold).
Old 09-02-2010, 03:46 AM
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Measuring EGT per cylinder is standard fair in the small aircraft industry. Do a search and you'll see how it's done. I can put EGT bosses anywhere on my headers and will do each cylinder if someone wants it that way. Spec measurement is ~1.5" from the exhaust port. Typical request is for one boss at the turbo flange base. That is a gross reading only, putting a boss in each secondary pipe will measure each bank which is more useful.

Jim, I don't think many folks read spark plugs any more. Kind of like re-curving your distributor, electronic devices have replaced most of the old school DIY hotrodding.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:08 AM
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I took the EFI101 course with Ben Strader. He was not a proponent of using EGT at all on 4-stroke engines. If I remember correctly, he's reasoning was that you didn't know if high EGT numbers were due to lean fuel or ignition timing.
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:47 AM
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That is true but EGT is a good diagnostic tool, especially if on each cylinder. Timing should affect all equally while a lean cylinder would stick out.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
In the old days we removed the spark plugs and looked at the color. If you know how to do that it's pretty accurate.

To visually read the mixture in each cylinder more accurately at high rpms shut off the motor at high rpms, put it in nuetral and coast to a stop before removing and reading the plugs.
This only accurately works at full throttle for more than 5 second and full throttle shut down. pudding around your block and chekin plugs gives you maybe a 15% informtaion on how its running. 15% is better than nothing i suppose.

Rarly, most people wont put 6 bosses on theyr hedders. You can tho, your a master at that sht (i need to learn how to weld)
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:40 AM
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Well, if you want to install 6 oxygen sensors - one in each header primary tube you're gonna need 6 sepearate wideband controllers like an Innovate LC-1 to go with them because there is not one controller made that has enough flash memory installed to save six different O2 sensor's heater calibrations and free air calibration data, or be able to switch between each O2 sensor.

Looking at the color and deposits on the plugs has been and always will be the easiest and most accurate way.. and as usual everyone has their own opinion and experiece (or lack of) with that.
Old 09-02-2010, 10:18 AM
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Your almost right. . . .high dollar telemetry equipment can give you up to 12 O2 sensor readings at the same time. When i tested a busch series car, i installed theyr R&D hedder with bungs on each tube and a telemetry system, 8 wide band sensors and 32 other sensors that i wont get into. High dollar stuff, but thats why i got paid the big bucks back then.

Low budget systems like the one i used to develop a racing 4 cyl engine had an R&D hedder with 4 O2 sensor and a pod with 4 gauges that was put in the car just for testing purposes (since i cant afford an engine dyno) i had to r&d on a hub dyno and on the track. I dont do EGT and even with 4 O2 sensors i did full throttle plug checks becasue even at perfect AFR, each piston has slightly different threshold of the melting point (which is why i check plugs).

Low budget set up may run you under a grand but it doesent get any better than one O2 sensor for each cylinder.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:45 AM
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Yes 6 sensors of any sort become a problem. Maybe individual CHT is a more eloquent way to troubleshoot possible lean cylinders. All this is getting nit picky though. If your AFR's are on the rich side on boost and your plugs are nice and grey then all is well. One look at the tailpipe tells a good story too.
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Old 09-02-2010, 01:18 PM
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Just a note, if 5 cylinders were at 11.5 AFR and one at 13.5 AFR a single O2 would probably indicate a safe 11.8 AFR.


However I agree with Brian's suggesting that monitoring 6 sensors might be cumbersome for most except the most dedicated racer. Some builder's install individual EGR's for tuning on the dyno but they rarely make it to the car.

On Brian's headers one could consider one EGT on each bank just past the collectors. Then watch for any variance as a clue. (see gauge below.)

Using the above example we would be ruining average AFR on one bank of 11.5 on and 12.2 on the other.

Seems we should start with good maintenance of checking the injectors for pop pressure and a good pattern and then doing the coke bottle balance test. I like Jim's point on the spark plug reading. One friend went as far as to send a bunch of injectors out to have there flow quanity's tested. He did see a variance and he used the best balanced 6.

If I had to have only one instrument I think it would be an EGT. Seems that most of the bad things that can cause a failure are more likely to show up there first including heat soak, a lean condition, poor gas, timing...

Second would be having a good wide band for tuning.


Also, there is a temperature sensing paint that some use on brake calipers. I wonder if this could be used some way.


Last edited by 911st; 09-02-2010 at 05:52 PM..
Old 09-02-2010, 05:01 PM
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