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I'm new at this. WUR?EFI? Help!!!!!!!

I just bought my first Porsche, an '87 930, a couple of months ago. This forum is great. It's already saved me money of fixing the hi-lo beam switch, helped me pick out the K&N intake filters, and helped pick out the rim sizes I've already got on order from HRE 560R's. The next step for me is going to be a set of Rarlyl8 Headers, and GT-3 Style muffler. My car came with a bunch of goodies, such as Andial built 3.5 conversion, Andial I/C, twin-plug heads, K-27 turbo, Andial fuel enrichment switch, "Big Red" calipers, and some suspension mods.
Now I've done all my own work on previous cars I've had, ( '98 Mitsu Eclipse GS-T Spyder, '99 Mitsu Eclipse GSX, and '06 Mitsu EVO IX) changing cams, heads, turbos, injectors, intake and exhaust manifolds, AFR computers, MSD ignitions, blow-off valves, I/C's, you name it. But my Porsche is a different animal.
I've been at this forum day and night trying to figure out things like:

What is WUR? adjustable, or digital?
How can I run a blow-off valve, that blow's out to atmosphere?
How can I run Electronic Ignition?
Can I run a Garrett GT turbo in the stock location, and what size for 5-600hp?
What EFI setup is the best, 3.2 manifold or.....?

HELP, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Last edited by 1SIK930; 09-05-2010 at 11:19 AM..
Old 09-05-2010, 07:58 AM
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It is sort of weird, but this forum only seems to keep the most recent 6 pages online, so you might not see the many topipcs from the past. If you do a search on each of these, you'll see a lot of info. The search function will bring up threads from the past that may not show up in the regular browser view for this forum.

There is a great thread out there that explains all the ins and outs of why not to vent to the atmosphere in a 930, though there are many who do and seem to have no issues. There is a lengthy thread on the whole WUR topic, too - and also an EFI thread and a bunch of posts about general upgrades.
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1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
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Old 09-05-2010, 08:55 AM
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Ricer suddenly developed some some taste
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SIK930 View Post

What is WUR? adjustable, or digital? Warm Up Regulator. All our cars have one, it regulates fuel pressure to the fuel distributor in response to temperature and boost(warm up regulation is but a small part of what it does). It's responsible for maintaining the correct air-to-fuel ratio.Many of us run with the stock unit which is just fine as it is. When/if you get into modifications that may benefit from fine-tuning things, then there are only two options: Go with the recently developed ditital WUR, or with a modified and adjustable WUR from Brian Leask.

How can I run a blow-off valve, that blow's out to atmosphere? Your car comes with a recirculation valve that recirculates the boost charge back to the infeed of the turbo when you get off the throttle (i.e., shift gears). For the type of fuel injection system we have (CIS) this system reduces turbo lag between shifts and prevents a super-rich fuel conditon that would happen if you vented that boost air charge to atmosphere instead. Why would you want to blow off to atmosphere unless you're just wanting audial verification and just get-off on hearing that boost charge whistle off? Venting to atmosphere is fine with EFI controlled fueling but not recommended for CIS.

How can I run Electronic Ignition? Your car has electronic ignition, as in CDI. The stock unit is ok, or several upgrades are available (MSD is popular).

Can I run a Garrett GT turbo in the stock location, and what size for 5-600hp? If you plan to run that kind of hp, you'll need a whole lot more than just a different turbo. Stick with the KKK K27 varients....7006 or 7200 until you've sorted out your goals.

What EFI setup is the best, 3.2 manifold or.....? No input from me on that one....I'm a CIS purist.
HELP, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just some general educationaly stuff. Understanding the infinite detail of your new 930 would take a lot of discussion. See my comments above.
Welcome aboard, and I hope you enjoy the hell out of your 930!!!
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Last edited by mark houghton; 09-05-2010 at 03:36 PM..
Old 09-05-2010, 03:34 PM
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Welcome!
You can fill volumes answering those questions.
If your true goal is 500-600HP then you can skip #1 and #2 as they no longer apply; #3 will come with your EFI engine management system and #4 will be built to support your engine's specs.
You're looking at a LOT of money to go down that road.
Now if you want to "settle" for 400HP or so to the wheels you can keep the CIS.
#1 has 3 choices: adjustable, static built to spec and digital.
#2 is yes but see Mark's caveats.
#3 is yes you can run a stand-alone crank trigger ignition.
#4 is yes a GT35R will go the distance but so will a K27HF which is made for a 930.
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:06 PM
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Ah, WUR(Warm Up Regulator), got it, thanks. I have an Andial fuel enrichment knob, that I was told adjusts the WUR. So, I guess that means I have an adjustable WUR aready, right?

Is there an easy way to figure out which K27 model turbo I have?

I understand the reasoning for staying with the KKK style turbo, but will a ball bearing GT turbo spool up faster?

And thanks guys, for taking the time to respond.

Last edited by 1SIK930; 09-06-2010 at 12:43 AM..
Old 09-06-2010, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esotoracing View Post
Ricer suddenly developed some some taste
Now, now. That's all I could afford in my 20's. But both Eclipse's I built, pulled 450-500hp, though. Not bad from a 2.0L 4 cylinder. And now I can afford what I've always wanted, a Porsche. Those other cars were just preparing me for the future. My rice rockets should of had a license plate frame that said "When I grow up, I want to be a Porsche"

Last edited by 1SIK930; 09-06-2010 at 12:33 AM..
Old 09-06-2010, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SIK930 View Post
Ah, WUR(Warm Up Regulator), got it, thanks. I have an Andial fuel enrichment knob, that I was told adjusts the WUR. So, I guess that means I have an adjustable WUR aready, right? Nope. The Andial interacts with the existing WUR to change the control pressure (lower it) in response to a chosen boost threshold....enriching the mixture on boost beyond what a stock WUR can do. Old technology and somewhat limited, but it does work. An adjustable WUR is a better way to go to get adjustability across the entire power band. It's the next best thing next to EFI.

Is there an easy way to figure out which K27 model turbo I have? Read the tag attached to the turbo. Post the numbers here and you'll get an answer.

I understand the reasoning for staying with the KKK style turbo, but will a ball bearing GT turbo spool up faster? Not necessarily. Probably on par with the K27HF as Brian mentioned.
And thanks guys, for taking the time to respond.
From your description, it sounds like you aready have a well sorted out car. Getting the HP goal you have mind will take many thousands in engine internal and external upgrades. I would start with first gaining as much info as available as to just exactly what has been done to your engine from the previous owner, beyond what you've already mentioned. My guess is that you're already pushing the 400 hp envelope.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SIK930 View Post
Ah, WUR(Warm Up Regulator), got it, thanks. I have an Andial fuel enrichment knob, that I was told adjusts the WUR. So, I guess that means I have an adjustable WUR aready, right? Nope. The Andial interacts with the existing WUR to change the control pressure (lower it) in response to a chosen boost threshold....enriching the mixture on boost beyond what a stock WUR can do. Old technology and somewhat limited, but it does work. An adjustable WUR is a better way to go to get adjustability across the entire power band. It's the next best thing next to EFI.

Is there an easy way to figure out which K27 model turbo I have? Read the tag attached to the turbo. Post the numbers here and you'll get an answer.

I understand the reasoning for staying with the KKK style turbo, but will a ball bearing GT turbo spool up faster? Not necessarily. Probably on par with the K27HF as Brian mentioned.
And thanks guys, for taking the time to respond.
From your description, it sounds like you aready have a well sorted out car. Getting the HP goal you have mind will take many thousands in engine internal and external upgrades. I would start with first gaining as much info as available as to just exactly what has been done to your engine from the previous owner, beyond what you've already mentioned. My guess is that you're already pushing the 400 hp envelope.
Do you have a camera? The price of knowledge requires pictures of your new ride!
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:41 AM
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The Garret ball bearing turbo's and especially the newer ones and hybrid offerings with light weight ceramic ball bearings and new computer designed turbine and compressor wheels made from more exotic lightweight alloys definately_spool_up_faster and make more horsepower than the old technology K27 series Borg Warner turbos.
You can also get Garret hybrid turbos with different AR sized cast stainless steel turbine housings that weigh alot less than the older cast iron turbine housings.

The K27 uses floating bronze bearings which have an oil clearance around the inner and outer diameters so the bearing rotates on the turbo shaft inside the cast iron bearing housing in a bath of moving oil hopefully never coming in contact with anything but the oil at around half the rpms as the turbo's shaft.
Because of that bearing design the K27 turbo has to have some shaft side play for the oil clearances.
The shaft side play is much more more noticeable if you rinse parts cleaner or spray solvent like brake clean through it to clean and rinse out the oil that is in there.

Then take a stock K27 7200 turbo, remove the origonal compressor wheel and KKK compressor housing and with some fabrication to the KKK backplate attach a bigger diameter and heavier Holset compressor wheel and bolt on an aftermarket snail/compressor housing to fit around it like the hybrid K27 HF and HFS and the KKK turbo spools up even slower than the origonal K27 7200 from the increased weight, rotational inertia, and aero drag from the bigger diameter compressor wheel.
That said, the K27 HF hybrid turbo does make more boost than a stock K27, holds it alot longer into high rpms, and the pressurized air flow from it is not as hot as the origonal K27 7200 or 7006 but because of the increased weight and drag of the bigger compressor wheel the whole assembly doesn't spin as fast so it increases exhaust backpressure before the turbo quite a bit which increases heat in the cylinder heads, headers, and the turbo's turbine and bearing housing - shortening it's life and making it a really good idea to use full synthetic 20w50 oil with no petroleum based ZDDP oil additives added to it to keep it from carbonizing and coking up in the bearing housing.
Old 09-06-2010, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SIK930 View Post
Now, now. That's all I could afford in my 20's. But both Eclipse's I built, pulled 450-500hp, though. Not bad from a 2.0L 4 cylinder. And now I can afford what I've always wanted, a Porsche. Those other cars were just preparing me for the future. My rice rockets should of had a license plate frame that said "When I grow up, I want to be a Porsche"
JaJa sounds good to me. . . .and not uncommon story for petrolheads.
(buddies first gen eclipse was pushing 900 flywheel hp no nitrous on his drag car)

As for your 930, id recomend get to know the car for a while. If your pushing close to 400 now, work on lowering the weight considerably if you plan to drag race or do some DE events or just get that kick in the pants. Most people dont go this route and is much much easier to do and go faster.

For the mechanicals and easy EFI swap with the 930 intake or a 3.2 intake but then youll have to re-route the intercooler outlet pipe with the 3.2 intake (probably need a diferent intercooler)

As sated above, KKK are ancient technology. There much much better turbos in the market today that spool up faster then the K27 and wont run out of boost up top. I myself am looking into the aerocharger and meth injection.
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:20 AM
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I have yet to see one direct comparison between a Garrett and K27. Unless a Garrett can spool up to 1.0bar before 2600rpm it's not quicker than a K27S.

I agree you need to figure out what you have now first. Not sure what an Andial fuel enrichment knob is or would do as these enrichment settings are typically not cockpit adjustable. An adjustable WUR is one that has been modified so the operator can manually adjust/tune the fuel pressures of cold start, cruise, boost threshold and boost. Once the settings are tuned they do not change and are not cockpit adjustable.
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:01 PM
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But, Mark... I hardly know you. Here she is, skirt lifted and all


Old 09-06-2010, 01:11 PM
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I really do wish I knew what all is in there. I'm the third owner. When I bought the car from the previous owner, who was more of a hot-rod guy, I asked him for all the receipts. But there was no receipt on the engine build. I'm relying on what he told me is in it, and that's a 3.5L conversion, and bigger cam's(he didn't know what kind). So, I guess I won't truly know what's in the block until the next rebuild. Everything else is visual, I/C, twin-plug heads, ect.. It has a 1.0 bar spring in the wastegate. I know this because when I first got it a couple of months ago, I've seen the boost gauge sit at 1.0 bar under pressure. But I am currently having problems keeping boost, as of lately, under full throttle it only gets as high as .8-.9 them starts to drop off. I've checked the o-rings on the I/C and they don't look cracked, maybe a little flat but ok. I think I'll change these anyway. I've checked the rubber hose at the turbo, it seems fine. Any other suggestions on where to look?
Old 09-06-2010, 01:30 PM
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Gorgeous car!
The intercooler does not appear to have an O-ring at the throttle body and is missing the rubber gromets of the hold-down attached to the BOV by the throttle body. If those things are missing then others may be as well.
This is what it should look like:

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Old 09-06-2010, 05:13 PM
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Gorgeous car!
The intercooler does not appear to have an O-ring at the throttle body and is missing the rubber gromets of the hold-down attached to the BOV by the throttle body. If those things are missing then others may be as well.
This is what it should look like:

Good eyes Brian!

I don't think I've ever seen quite so many air filters on a 930. Works for me, though. Crankcase and oil tank breathers, as well as maybe one for the decel valve to the left of the IC.

OK 1SIC930, you've got our attention. Very nice looking and sorted out machine. Thanks for the picts. This thing has had lots of work done, obviously. Too bad you don't have all the intimate detail.
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:50 PM
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Not sure what an Andial fuel enrichment knob is or would do as these enrichment settings are typically not cockpit adjustable.
Brian, back in the earlier days when I too was running with an Andial fueler thingy, there is a potentiometer that mounts inside the vehicle, so that you can change the duty cycle of the frequency valve with a simple click of the nob. IIRC, it had maybe 6 different positions to increase enrichment on boost as needed.

A note to our new member: Do you have - at the very least - an on-board AFR gauge? You need to know what your fuel to air mixture is doing, especially when messing with a highly modified car.
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:55 PM
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Nice looking ride ! The rear wheel fender fit is excellent! Im not into chrome but it works on this one. Front tire to fender clearance seems a bit much. What do you have for suspension ???
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:34 PM
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A note to our new member: Do you have - at the very least - an on-board AFR gauge? You need to know what your fuel to air mixture is doing, especially when messing with a highly modified car.
Great idea. Our host sells a great one the Daytona Sensors Wego IV AFR gauge. I have one in my 911 MFI '73 and love it. It works well and is a good value. I am part of the distribution channel so I am enthuisastic, but know it is a good tool and this is a great instrument.
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:39 AM
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Thanks for the tips. The rubber I/C mounts and all the O-rings are going to be in at my local dealer tomorrow. Hopefully that will solve my boost problem.

The tag on my turbo reads:
72004
k27
95 911 1714
k27 ??? 7006

Any idea on what type and hp range this is good for?

I don't currently have any A/F gauge. I was thinking, why, until I have a way to adjust it. Any suggestions on what type of WUR I should get? And where to get it?

Any other suggestions on A/F gauges?


Last edited by 1SIK930; 09-09-2010 at 08:56 PM..
Old 09-08-2010, 09:36 PM
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