Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: AB, CANADA
Posts: 126
Garage
I think they ment mechanically driven centrifugal supercharger like Vortex or Paxton. They are larger and slower spinning then turbochargers (turbosuperchargers), therefore you can get away with injecting water/meth before the supercharger.
Also, I have to disagree with their statement, that methanol provides better cooling than water, as water has much higher latent heat. Advantage of methanol is that it is a fuel and brings energy into your combustion, versus water vapor displacing air/fuel mixture. Problem with injecting pure methanol is , that it has very different then gasoline combustion characteristics and it is very difficult to obtain proper A/F ratio of combined gasoline/methanol fuel. Aquamist recommends 50/50 mixture of methanol/water in their literature and they have been selling high end kits for longer then most.

Old 09-13-2010, 04:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Auburn,In. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,449
Jerz,

Your reply is exactly why I posted the quote. I am trying to get good and correct information out there and varying opinions are the way we do that. They create food for thought.

I agree 100 % on your statement on the cooling of water vs. methanol. The statement had to have been in error.

I think Aquamist is hands down the best choice for a WMI system but it is overkill for CIS applications and cost prohibitive to most DYI's.

Cole
__________________
Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-13-2010, 05:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 205
I think water/alcohol injection is a fantastic idea for a 930, assuming safeguards are designed into the system. If I continue the modification process on my EFI converted 964 Turbo, I plan to go this route.

In my car, the AEM engine managment system has a plug in auxiliary injection module that interfaces with the EMS. You utilize a different set of maps (more timing, fuel and boost) with the water/methanol flowing than you do with it off. What I like about this system is the failsafes designed into it - if the system fails for whatever reason (blocked nozzle, low level of injectant, electrical failure), the signal to the EMS goes to ground and the system defaults back to the more conservative map. This system has been proven in the HPF M3 turbo's pushing over 1,000hp.

Whichever system you choose to use, make sure it has these safeguards designed... otherwise, some silly $2 injection nozzel that gets blocked could cost you a $20k+ motor!
Best,
John
PS Aquamist is another well-respected aux injection provider. They are based in England.
Old 09-13-2010, 05:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sjf911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,727
Garage
Water has a substantially higher latent heat of vaporization than methanol so the cooling effect is greater but displaces fuel/air. Methanol adds "octane" and fuel so a mix makes sense, especially given the fire hazard of pure methanol. From what I have read, the recommended injection rate is about 10-25% of your fuel flow by weight. I run a 60:40 (H2O:alcohol by volume) at about 9% of fuel with mine since I have a full bay intercooler and relatively low boost and intake temps. The highest performance water/meth injection systems I have seen use individual injectors per cylinder and avoid upstream injection, especially if there are significant bends in the intake plumbing to avoid centrifugal separation. My injector is upstream of the throttle body and around three 90 degree bends in the intake plumbing so it is not ideal from that standpoint. I do use a high pressure system and high efficiency injector nozzle to improve atomization. My system also has a flow meter and built-in safeguard capability for flow failure monitoring and feedback.
__________________
Steve
Sapere aude
1983 3.4L 911SC turbo. Sold
Old 09-13-2010, 06:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
R.I.P.
 
drmatera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nicholson, Ga
Posts: 2,160
My megasquirt will control the meth injection system. So all I need is a pump and nozzle.

I think injecting fuel at the runner is a great idea. The mix will cool more than you think as that is the area of most concentrated heat (valves and combustion chamber).

But to keep safe I like the simple nozzle just after the intercooler spraying just enough to cool the charge and it only effects a/f ratio by a slight amount ( .2 - .3 ). When you rely heavily on the WMI you get bit.
Old 09-13-2010, 07:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Auburn,In. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,449
John and Steve,

Thanks so much for contributing, this is just the kind of information we are looking for. Steve could you please let us know which system you are running as I am trying to let everyone know what is available out there.

I started this because there had to be a pratical and affordable way to tame detonation on these old girls let alone the fact we can have amazing performance
gains along with safe operation. With a 930 the whole idea of performance and safe operation sounds like the ultimate dichotomy.

I'm just a dumb ass old school guy so your applications do make me envious because of the control flexibility there is when having EMS and EFI vs, my CIS. I guess I'm just too stubborn to give up on making the CIS work with 400 hp.

Thanks again for the help as we need someone who knows what their doing here.


Cole
__________________
Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 09-13-2010 at 07:19 AM..
Old 09-13-2010, 07:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,201
Garage
i did not read through this whole thread, but i will shard my thoughts,..

first of all i love water / meth injection

i have a pretty easy set up on a 2004sti

i have a two gallon tank that is located in the trunk (this is a factory jdm tank that was used)

i run 50 / 50 or denatured alcohol and distilled water, i was told this is the best possible mixture,..do not run tap water as it can leave deposites and build up in your intercooler and in your pipes

i have a 150psi progressive pump hooked up to the tank

it is 100% boost controlled, the sti is run by a standalone engine management so its a bit different then the 930, but the water controller is kicks the pump on when the car hits 7psi of boost, as boost builds, the pumps pressure builds

the best place for the injection nozzle is about 2-3 inches before the TB, this gives the mixture time to atomize (i think that is the right work i am looking for)

i was able to pick up about 42whp and 30ish ft/lbs with this set up

DONT LET THE MIXTURE ever run out, once a car is tuned for alcohol, if you hit boost and the tank is empty you can blow your engine (atleast my understanding on the sti)

that is why its set at 7psi, i can ride around all day and if i dont drive the car like a jackass it never kicks on!
Old 09-13-2010, 07:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Auburn,In. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,449
Jim,

Thanks for jumping in here . What system are you using as a controller. How does it interface with the sti engine management system? Impressive performance results !!! I'd be interested in any increases in timing and boost that this system allowed as well as what your afr's look like with the WMI.

Cole
__________________
Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-13-2010, 07:30 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
R.I.P.
 
drmatera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nicholson, Ga
Posts: 2,160
one thing people have to understand is that WMI alone won't "make more power". It just makes it possible to run a more aggressive tune thus producing more power.
Old 09-13-2010, 08:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
If you put individual water injection nozzles just before the intake ports how would you ever know if one or a few of them clogged?
I really doubt there is any way to know because the hardware and sensors to monitor water flow in 6 seperate lines would be way too expensive.

...this is not a fair comparison to the water injection kits available today, but I had a cheap Edelbrock water injection system on a singlle downdraft carburator BMW 2002 way back in 1980 and the little spray holes in the brass injector would clog up from dried mineral deposits in the water every 4-6 days of daily driving.
It used intake manifold vacuum going to something like a MAP sensor to trigger the little windsheild washer type pump to spray water or alcohol/water down the carburator throat.

Of course, theoretically a more expensive and higher pressure system should work better if you use distilled water and alcohol mixed together... i guess.

Anyway, I put up with the piece of junk for about a month before removing it and throwing it in a box and forgetting about it.

How often does anyone ever use the headlight washer nozzles?
Never right? ..because you gotta wash the stupid car afterwards.
So, how about a Rambo water/alcohol injection system,,, just put a momentary switch under the gas pedal that turns on the headlight washer pump thats already mounted on the side of the 2 gallon windsheild washer bottle in the left front fender and run a hose to a single small injector above the throttle body so it sprays water at full throttle.

Now, I'm just kidding and trying to make some useless humor with the whole idea because I would never trust even the most expensive water/alcohol injection set up to work consistantly or not clog up the nozzle for longer than 2 weeks of use.

Good luck with the water injection kit installs, I hope they wrok well and I'll be reading about the long term results with interest.

I'd just spray water mist externally on the top of the intercooler with an array of several small jets when accelerating or on demand by pushbutton to cool it off if doing anything.
Old 09-13-2010, 08:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,201
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
Jim,

Thanks for jumping in here . What system are you using as a controller. How does it interface with the sti engine management system? Impressive performance results !!! I'd be interested in any increases in timing and boost that this system allowed as well as what your afr's look like with the WMI.

Cole
my system was custom built by SMC, it was a complete kit, only problem is there is no failsafe, there was none out when i installed the car, i believe there are tons out now

the car had to be tuned for this, i run 23psi, and was running around 19-20 before water injection

as for the acutal tuning, i had it done by a tuning shop, i know a little about tuning, but not enough to take any chances blowing up a engine! i feel all tuning is better left to the prefessionals!

that is correct, water injection will not make power by itself, as for just about any parts, you get the most out of anything when it is tuned correctly!, these parts just allow more freedom to tune

my sti also has a intercooler spray, with two nozzles just over the intercooler, run to the washer tank that i NEVER USE, and i can mist the intercooler whenever i feel the need,..sitting in traffic etc,...



you can see the braided line for the water injection running into the charge pipe just before the TB
Old 09-13-2010, 08:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
I would never trust even the most expensive water/alcohol injection set up to work consistantly or not clog up the nozzle for longer than 2 weeks of use.
JFairman,
I think you'd be surprised at the systems available nowadays. To address the clogged nozzles, you install a filter in the system.

The AEM setup is able to monitor the flow of water via a pressure sensor. If it leaves a defined range (high or low, I suspect), the system sends a signal to the ECU to run the basic, non-water injected map.

AEM Water/Methanol Systems for Gasoline Engines - Water/Meth Kits - Wideband O2 UEGO, X-WiFi, EMS Series 2, Engine Management, F/IC, Tru Boost, Gauges, and more Automotive Performance Electronics

This system is actually fairly basic - just a progressive controller with a boost input... and not a full 3D map with the ability to tune the water/meth the same way you'd tune a gasoline injector. Those systems exist... but are a bit more complicated. I suspect you see 80% of the benefit for 20% of the complexity and hassle.
Best,
John
Old 09-13-2010, 09:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
It's not dirt in the water that clogs the nozzle, it's heat transfer back to the nozzle after shutting off the motor (like overnight) which dries the water in the nozzle and leaves behind hard whiteish color mineral deposits. Like calcium deposits from the water or something.
Most kits will use a plastic check valve inline to keep the water waiting at the nozzle between squirts along with a water filter upstream, and I'm sure that will last forever and be totally reliable too..

If using distilled water there is less chance of that but I've BTDT years ago and got the idea out of my system then.

It's a high maintenance risky setup if you're running more boost and or timing advance with it that I will bet money won't be working right in less than 6 - 12 months regular use... and it'll eventually be back in a dusty box somewhere.

This is just my realistic and negative opinion from experience.... that said, I would spray the water externally over the intercooler by simple momentary pushbutton switch from the headlight washer pump occasionally when at traffic lights and during acceleration if uncurable gadgetitis inspired me to do anything with water on my car.
Old 09-13-2010, 09:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #33 (permalink)
R.I.P.
 
drmatera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nicholson, Ga
Posts: 2,160
Systems today are light years ahead of the crap that was put out back then. High pressures, around 150-200psi, keep the systems flowing and atomizing very well and are not prone to failing. Even the home built set-up I ran worked flawlessly for years. Even with it sitting for months at a time it worked great.

I'm going to look into whats out there kit wise as I don't feel like sourcing it all over again.
Old 09-13-2010, 10:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
Hey Darin, I hope it works... that said didn't you say earlier you used pure alcohol and no water on your mustang?

Do you think all bottles of store bought distilled water marketed for steam ironing clothing are perfectly cleaned of minerals? and all bottles of windsheild washer fluid with alcohol mixed in for antifreeze are consistant? ..not me for one second.

In a 20,000 Porsche motor no way, too risky in my opinion... but in a generic lazy old cast iron american pushrod V8, go for it.
Old 09-13-2010, 10:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
Registered User
 
richemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 420
Garage
Great WAI setup on this 2.4L in the following post....

73.5 911t cis turbo
__________________
-Mike
'71 RS LWT 3.2L
Old 09-13-2010, 11:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #36 (permalink)
R.I.P.
 
drmatera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Nicholson, Ga
Posts: 2,160
i ran straight methanol from our local race fuel supplier. But when I first started I used the -20* washer fluid with great results. I didn't tune to the limits till i switched to straight meth. So as I said before if you want a nice safety feature WMI is great.

You have to remember that every time you drive your car aggressively you are relying in 2 fuel pumps, ancheint fuel distributor and injectors. So to say a WMI kit could fail and take out your motor you would also have to concede that just flooring your car is the largest danger to your engine. There are no parts prone to failure.

on a hot day in August I would rather have a meth kit than not
Old 09-13-2010, 11:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,201
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
It's not dirt in the water that clogs the nozzle, it's heat transfer back to the nozzle after shutting off the motor (like overnight) which dries the water in the nozzle and leaves behind hard whiteish color mineral deposits. Like calcium deposits from the water or something.
Most kits will use a plastic check valve inline to keep the water waiting at the nozzle between squirts along with a water filter upstream, and I'm sure that will last forever and be totally reliable too..

If using distilled water there is less chance of that but I've BTDT years ago and got the idea out of my system then.

It's a high maintenance risky setup if you're running more boost and or timing advance with it that I will bet money won't be working right in less than 6 - 12 months regular use... and it'll eventually be back in a dusty box somewhere.

This is just my realistic and negative opinion from experience.... that said, I would spray the water externally over the intercooler by simple momentary pushbutton switch from the headlight washer pump occasionally when at traffic lights and during acceleration if uncurable gadgetitis inspired me to do anything with water on my car.
this is why i was told to ONLY USE DISTILLED WATER so you dont get this build up
Old 09-13-2010, 11:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #38 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Auburn,In. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,449
God Fairman,

I needed that !!!! You have now officially become one of the Crotchety Old Bastards along with Brian and I. I was actually thinking about you last nite when I was posting a reply here, and wondering what your opinion of all this would be. You did not disappoint me and I got the honest no BS opinion I was looking for. As I posted earlier I'm giving this thing a try ( one good thing about social security checks, I'm spending money I never figured I'd live long enough to see anyway) and knowing I would hear from you sooner or later I figured a good plan B - worst case I'll end up with a nice $500 boost triggered IC Spray Bar and it will always be lovingly referred to as the "Fairman Douche Bar"


Jim,
You do very nice work my friend after looking at the picture I went out and re cleaned my empty engine compartment. Do you keep a professional detailer on call or what !!!! Thanks for the updated info and the pic.


Cole
__________________
Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-13-2010, 11:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Registered User
 
polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Collegeville, PA
Posts: 1,367
I'm going to pass along a point of reference - not a legitimate argument. You're welcome to call me an idiot (already know I am) and tell me why this is bad advice, and I won't be able to intelligibly argue with you.

I've been researching the use of WMI in my '87 Carrera turbo conversion as I do not have room for an I/C under my Carrera whale tail. I work in financial services, so when it comes to making decisions for my car, I rely heavily on this forum and reputable tuners and engine builders. I *just* got off the phone with Todd from Protomotive to get his input on the matter since he will be customizing my ECU. He's a proponent of WMI. He said, "You'll definitely be safe in your setup to run 1.2 BAR boost with a properly installed WMI with safeguards." (I'm running 8.0:1 Mahle pistons with 3.3 L Mahle cylinders, 964 twin plug dizzy, and NO intercooler) Off hand, he mentioned that he's installed AEM and Aquamist WMI systems. He didn't caution me against any long term, potential side effects for my car. He simply said to make sure it's installed properly and with safeguards.

__________________
Andy - 1987 911 Carrera Coupe
Old 09-13-2010, 12:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:33 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.