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Water / Methanol Injection

I'm adding a water / methanol injection system to the "Old Sled"

This subject has been kicked around here a few times but very few seem to be taking advantage of it's benefits. Chris Toy is the only guy on here who seems to be an avid proponent of WMI and runs it on his, TO DIE FOR, 930 powered 356 Speedster. WHY ?. Im starting this thread in an effort to get some experienced feed back on WMI as well as to introduce it to other 930 freaks that are also concerned about controlling detonation.

I'm buttoning up my motor and am about to put it back in. I started going through the list of mods, upgrades, replacement parts, trick s---, cosmetic enhancements, and the "I've got to have that" items that have been added since I started this. I will tell you it is exactly everything I ever wanted in a 930, it's "my" perfect ride. I also started adding up the cost of building my dream car and realized it could easily approach the cost of my house if I let it. That said, I have a very justifiable concern about how to keep from blowing it up.

My build is not anything that would be considered radical, my intent was to build a reliable street engine in the 350 - 400 HP range using what the factory gave me with all the tried and true bolt on mods. I want to be able to boost 1 bar now and then and I only drive it on the street. I have no desire to drive 200 MPH but I do like "quick". As we all know here, I am not asking for the moon, this is not a difficult task. But !!!!! as we all know it can all go south in a millisecond with detonation. The D word, it is actually spelled DEATH.

In an effort to avoid DEATH I started reading all I could to understand it, what causes it and how to avoid or at least control it. I am already doing all the obvious things, montior afr's, DWUR, never rev past 6000 RPM, run the highest octain gas I can find, run programmable ignition with boost retard and closed loop map feedack, EBC with 1 bar set point.



SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Quote: Alcohol Injection Systems

"In recent years, water methanol injection has become ever more popular and recognized as an invaluable tool for both gasoline and diesel forced induction engines. As well as normally naturally aspirated applications. While often times referred to as a “chemical intercooler” it is more commonly used in forced induction applications due to it’s substantial cooling effects and added octane increase it adds to pump gas. Reducing air intake charge temperatures by 50-200+ degrees F almost instantly. Providing a substantially cooler denser intake air charge for a greater expansion of power within the combustion chamber. While also largely eliminating the problem of engine “knocking” and allowing user to run higher levels of boost, compression and increased timing."

Lets hear some feedback on this as it can be a significant benifit to those of us
who are concerned about keeping our 930's together and on the road where they belong.

Cole

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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 12-16-2010 at 10:09 AM..
Old 09-12-2010, 09:30 AM
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My question to you is there 1 injector? And what activates it?
Old 09-12-2010, 10:01 AM
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My thinking exactly. It seems that Porsche crowd is quite conservative in their approach to engine building and tuning. My new engine will have WI for two reasons - added safety on street fuel, and extra power on race fuel. I am relatively new to 911 turbo, but I had good experience with water injection on other cars.
You just have to use good quality system with fail safes for running out of water, plugged jet, or pump failure.
Some people feel, that 400hp out of 3.3 turbo is nowhere near the rugged edge some Mitsus, Subies and others are running. I have to disagree, considering, that we are making that power at about 1000rpm less, on air cooled engine with knock prone heads. The fact that most dont use any knock detection/control and run quite lean mixtures on boost scares me. And then there is the cost
Jerzy
Old 09-12-2010, 10:21 AM
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Les,

The particular unit I'm getting has 1 nozzle that goes in the IC outlet just before the TB. You can actually get a system that has a nozzle for each intake runner although that is not the best place to have them. 1 nozzle between the IC and the TB is best. The system operates off boost set points in a controller and pressure and flow volume are progressive and follow the increase in boost. You will set the start and stop points based on your boost curve.


Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-12-2010, 10:26 AM
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Jerzy,

I am approaching this from the need for some safety against detonation. I have a friend in AZ that builds 400-800 HP Turbo Porsche's every day. I can't afford one nor is that what I wanted for a casual driver. Porsche HP has never been an issue of mechanics just an issue of money.

The particular WMI unit I'm getting has level, flow,clog safety built in. It will divert boost to wastegate spring pressure or turn off EBC controller and retard my timing upon any failures.

Knock sensors on a Porsche motor are a nightmare and to get a system that works costs a fortune. I can see the need for that expense on a high dollar race application but on a street car it's not cost effective.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 09-12-2010 at 10:50 AM..
Old 09-12-2010, 10:46 AM
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I have a small line that runs from the IC to the Boost gauge in the cockpit. Would the control device split off that line for adjustment?
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Last edited by Les Paul; 09-12-2010 at 11:09 AM..
Old 09-12-2010, 11:07 AM
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Les,

The system consists of a plastic tank, or you can use your windshield washer reservoir, a high pressure pump, hose, 1 atomizing nozzle, and a controller. The controller is used to control flow to the nozzle and has dials to set flow and start stop set points. ( You would splice into your boost line to provide a boost signal to this controller)

I am also purchasing a safety module that monitors flow, pump, fluid level, and nozzle for plugging. This module has a 12vdc output that can be connected to solenoids or relays to divert boost to your bypass valve, cut out an EBC or wastegate solenoid (which then dumps boost) if any WMI faults are detected. Mine will actually retard my timing if a fault detected.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 09-12-2010 at 11:39 AM..
Old 09-12-2010, 11:36 AM
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I considered Meth injection on my 930 because I had great luck with it on my last turbocharged car. I run E85 now, so I don't need the meth but it's a great insurance policy on those hot days or when your really pushing the car. I found running straight meth gave me the best performance and consistancy. Some say water/meth cools better but I would get a slight bog when the system activated but I didn't on straight meth. Now that i'm taking about it I kind of want to put it on for those times E85 is not available.
Old 09-12-2010, 11:36 AM
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So you're saying e85 is that good?
Old 09-12-2010, 11:59 AM
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dr,

I read something about that slight bog you were talking about. I can't remember what they said caused it but it took an adjustment to fix it. I'll see if I can find that info for you because it was something simple like flow rate.

From what I have read the optimal mixture is 40 / 60 or 50 /50. the straight meth route is incredibly flammable and adding the water portion also significantly
cools the cylinders. The water injected works in three ways. Firstly, when the water is injected into the intake system prior to the cylinder head, the small droplets absorb heat from the intake air. Water has a very high specific heat rating (it can absorb lots of energy while only slowly increasing in temperature) and so the intake air is initially cooled. Next, the small drops of water start to evaporate. Water has a very high latent heat of evaporation (its change of state absorbs a lot of heat) and so the intake air charge is cooled still further. Finally, when the remaining water droplets and water vapor reach the combustion chamber, steam is produced. This acts as an anti-detonant and also keeps the interior of the engine very clean.

The old consensis was add more fuel to help cool the cylinders. This does help to a point then your pig rich and have a whole new set of issues. Water will cool 6 times better than fuel and methanol will cool 2 times better than fuel. The methanol also increases the octane level.

I think WMI gives you a level of safety that you can't find anywhere for the cost involved. Allot of bang for the buck.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 09-12-2010 at 01:14 PM..
Old 09-12-2010, 12:07 PM
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Cole, Yes the bog was the sudden delivery. I had a crude and very simple home made set up that was either off or on. With the small jet it was fine but as I started pushing the car harder I increased the jet accordingly. To give an example of how hard you can push 93 octane and meth here was my combo

small black Ford 302
9:1 comp
Iron heads
(anybody experienced with boost and SBF's know haed gasket sealing is dificult.) Boost and timing have their limits before gasket failure. On 93 fuel the safe tune with decent IAT's would be 20* total advance and around 10-12psi of boost. I was able to safely reach 26* total timing and 23psi of boost even in the 90+* summer heat with zero detonation on my 93/meth set up. Those are race fuel numbers at pump gas prices. Now E85 is similar although since it's injected right above the intake valve you don't get the initial cooling advantage. But detonation resistance is still very high and more boost can be run safely. While timing advance can be raised as well it's not always necessary at peak rpm but I always saw a healthy increase of mid range torque and HP when throwing a more aggressive timing advance in the 2000-4500rpm range. My last dyno trip saw 15 more ft pounds across the rpm range stated above with a mear 2* increase of timing. E85 does love increased igntion timing but not everywhere and all the time.
Old 09-12-2010, 01:21 PM
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dr,

26* of timing and 23lb. of boost with a 9:1 compression motor and no detention is really impressive. With all meth you were getting a pretty good octane rating but that's still very impressive.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-12-2010, 01:54 PM
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I was quite impressed myself. I just kept leaning on it and going faster, it got to the point I was running twin meth nozzles and my IAT's would be lower at the end of the pass then they were at the starting line. Damn, now you got me wanting to be a meth head again
Old 09-12-2010, 02:30 PM
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dr,

I think that's a good thing, that 86 of your's would probably like it. Especially in Fla. If we get this WMI thread rolling I'm going to need some experienced input on some of these questions because I haven't gotten my feet wet yet so I'm running only on what I have read. I try to work only with credible sources but on the net you can never be sure. Your input and practical experience would be invaluable.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-12-2010, 02:58 PM
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my consideration for water meth injection is to remove the IC completely to be able to use no wing in the rear. Its just a particular look i want. Injectin the w/m into the turbo compressor. Seems that set up give you the cooling effect of a nice large IC.

and someone stated that an injector on each runner isnt the best set up...that may be true for the 930 becasue of its design but id like to see hard data proof of that.
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:23 PM
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I'm planning to use WMI on my Turbo Carrera conversion. It's a fantastic solution for us Porsche guys without a turbo tale. I'm not sure about your 930s, but my Carrera has a 2+ gallon windshield washer reservoir, making for a more integrated solution without cluttering things up.

I actually spoke at length with a nice guy from Snow Performance (Snow Performance: Home) on Friday. Their stage 3 solution can be dialed in off of any combination of boost and injector pulse width.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:25 PM
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esoto,

You might consider 2 nozzles one at the turbo inlet and another just before the TB would make for a good system.

As far as nozzles at each runner, at that location you loose a lot of precooling of the incoming air especially with no IC. On the other hand if you went with one of the high dollar Airmist systems you could run a nozzle at each runner and program for each intake port based on flow and duty cycle. Very not cheap.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-12-2010, 05:03 PM
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Andy,

Snow is the unit I am waiting to get here. They are very nice people and very helpful. Their stage 3 unit is really great but their is not much use with CIS. No pulse width, duty cycle, and I doubt if the injectors are even close to matched flow.
I went with a Stage II Boost Cooler and a safe injector module.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 09-12-2010 at 07:05 PM..
Old 09-12-2010, 05:11 PM
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I had good experience with Perrin Performance PWI-1. This is a very sophisticated system, but uses injectors duty cycle to adjust the flow, so only good for EFI set up. It has nice failsafe futures based on the water flow. It uses same components as Aquamist, but at much better price. I don't see it on their site anymore - maybe its discontiniued.
The idea of spraying water into your turbo compressor is not a good one. You will have erosion problems on your compressor wheel. Then there is the issue of uneven flow of our manifolds, especially the CIS one. I think the multi-port is the way to go.
If you run an intercooler, you should spray water after it, as IC works on temperature delta. If you pre-cool air going into the IC with water, your IC efficiency goes down. SO if you want to go with single point , the jet should be placed after the IC, before, or after the throttle body.
Old 09-13-2010, 12:03 AM
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This is one of the reasons I wanted to start this thread; like most such subjects there are always conflicting opinions. In an effort to present both sides of the subject I have posted the following quote referencing pre turbo WMI.

Quote: Alcohol Injection Systems

"A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to its fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68 F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64 F.

One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle. Impeller erosion is highly unlikely with centrifugal supercharger as they spin at a considerably slower speed then turbochargers. Impeller erosion is of little concern with centrifugal superchargers. "

Cole

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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 09-13-2010, 03:42 AM
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