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Is the synchronc a direct replacement for the stock or do I have to plumb it in there different.
Not that it is a big deal but would love to see a pic of how to do it...
Old 12-20-2010, 06:03 PM
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I am not sure if it is a direct replacement as my build is not your usual build it is a 2.7 and is EFI not CIS so mine is plumbed in different than a 930 would be.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:12 PM
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J:

The honorable Mr. Smith is correct Syncronic SB001. If you go to the Synapse web site you can download the manual.

I originally choose this BOV based on very fast responce, 1 1/4" inlet and outlet dias., boost pressure holds the valve shut so there is no creep or bleed, and there are a varity of flange options.

I don't think the BOV, it's self shortens spool time as much as the plumbing flexability does. Once the throttle body is closed upon lifting off the gas the BOV exhausts all the boost that is in the intake track. That intake track volume has to be recharged with boost when you get back on the gas before you can build boost again. The time it takes to fill the volume of the intake track contributes significantly to how fast you get boost again. From the discharge outlet of the Bov to the intake side of the turbo on my set up consists of 9 1/2 " of 1 1/4 " hose. The volume of the stock intake track is 360 ci. in., the volume on my set up is 9.8 cu. in. allowing faster recharge time.

The BOV is a direct replacement if you have a long neck intercooler and a 964 style BOV. If you are still running the stock intercooler and recirculation assembly it can be retrofitted with a little work.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 12-21-2010 at 07:12 AM..
Old 12-20-2010, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post

...The time it takes to fill the volume of the intake track contributes significantly to how fast you get boost again...
Cole,

You got me thinking again.

After playing with some numbers, I suspect the volume of the intake track is almost negligible compared to the effect of compressor stall.

If I have my numbers right to recharge 360 cubic inches even if we are just flowing 200 CFM would take less than 6/100's of a second.

However, overcoming the turbo's rotating mass and friction would take significantly longer.

Thus, reducing compressor stall is probably how a BOV increases performance.

What is cool about how the Synapse BOV works, it can also do so at idle and cruse as it lets the turbo free wheel more than if the BOV were to stay closed like on all other aftermarket units.


.

Last edited by 911st; 12-21-2010 at 01:28 AM..
Old 12-21-2010, 01:20 AM
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I like the Synapse unit I have noticed a performance increase and the boost comes on very smooth I know this is making my dubious build last much longer than it would have without the BOV. This has been a fantastic experiment so far and a great learning experience so when I do build my high Hp motor it will have reliability and longevity at higher boost levels. This induction system I have now will be transferred over to the new motor in its entirety with mods to very little. I still need to add the WMI and a charge air temp in/out gauge to get my intercooler eff. but I am judgeing by the performance I am getting out of this 2.7 and the fact that it is still intact makes me think I have put together a pretty good package.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:55 AM
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My motor is a 3.5 stroked from a 3.0. I have a garrettson intercooller and no recycle valve.
I guess I am going to add to my christmas list.
Old 12-21-2010, 05:30 AM
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Mine is a 2.7 with a recent upper end overhaul (believe it or not the heads were done by motormeister yes I had not found this forum when that was done) other than that stock with the usual case mods done and I just bolted on the 3.3 turbo equipment and lowered the boost to 5-6 psi
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" Porsche there is no substitute" I always liked that saying. Air cooled is the only way to go!
76 911 C.R.A.P. Gruppe #2 BIG time TURBO C.R.A.P. Bitz EFI/EDIS Now MegaSquirt 3
76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 12-21-2010, 05:39 AM
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Keith & G Man:

You need to understand I have no idea if I'm correct in my assumptions or not and I don't care, as I have absolutely no "need" to be right. I am just sharing what goes on inside my old, worn out, chemo fried brain.

As I said earlier "I choose the Synapse unit based on very fast response, 1 1/4" inlet and outlet dias., boost pressure holds the valve shut so there is no creep or bleed, and there are a variety of flange options. " and I would add the mounting flexibility of any stand alone BOV allows you to unclutter the engine bay some.

My theory about quicker recharge of the intake track affecting spool is nothing more than my personal experience validated by the "pucker dyno". When I changed from the original recirculation assy. to a 964 style Bosch BOV I could
"feel" the difference. Mark Houghton also posted he could "feel" a difference
after he cut down his recirculation assy. and added the Bosche BOV. I seriously doubt that my old ass can detect as little as a 6/100 seconds difference.

So; If it makes a difference in spool time or not is going to have to be determined
by your own ass, but if nothing else, there are other benifits as well as less clutter in the engine compartment.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 12-21-2010, 07:50 AM
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J:

A 3.5 stroked..... now that's way cool. Are you turbocharged or just using an IC for cooling? Are you still running CIS or are you EFI.

If you are turbocharged you should add a bov.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 12-21-2010 at 08:00 AM..
Old 12-21-2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
When I changed from the original recirculation assy. to a 964 style Bosch BOV I could
"feel" the difference. Mark Houghton also posted he could "feel" a difference
after he cut down his recirculation assy. and added the Bosche BOV.
Cole
I have a sensitive ass, and my pucker factor is well tuned (I once calibrated my arse hole against a high-buck dyno). Since I'm not in competition with anyone but myself, my seat-of-the-pants dyno tells me all I need to know. My mods are about pleasing me.
Hey, I thought Cole's thread was on water/methanol injection. I'm as guilty as anyone for getting off topic (I like to hear myself type). Remember the old "this is your brain on drugs" commercials? Well, this is your 930 on methamphetamines!
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:52 PM
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This is my build. 3.5 turbo, sc cams, 8to1 comp, .8lbs boost, k27hf, garretson intercooler, CIS with worked fuel head, electromotive crankfire ignition,b and b exhaust, brian leasks WUR, brians solinoid switch to hold off enrichment untill higher rpms, I have a short bell housing with shorter gears and LSD, new centerforce clutch, Inovative wide band . It was rebuild about 15,000 miles ago. It started life as an 83 sc cab. I turned it into what I wanted. It has a full body kit (94 turbo), weights in at 2500lbs.
I debated about going EFI but my car runs so good that it is hard to talk myself into why I should do it. My car starts right up hot or cold out. With brians solinoid and the electronic ignition I have alot of adjustablity. My a/f is 11.5 to 12.5 from 2000-6500rpms. It does nothing wrong and all the EFIs I have seen all have some kind of problem. Not to say there are not Good EFIs out there.
Here is a pic. My car is in it. It is an old pic.The car cosmetically was not totally done in this pic but you get the idea. It is of my shop. It all I have. My computer crashed last week and I lost all my pics..
Old 12-21-2010, 05:28 PM
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For what is is worth and to clarify -- the figures posted earlier are more correct with how a Tial style BOV functions that one might use with an EFI conversion where it vents to atmosphere.

The 930's stock boost valve and the aftermarket piston style BOV's we would typically use on conversion with CIS would operate differently than the figures suggest.

The piston face would not be orientated to face and push against the boost pressure.

Instead it would act as a valve that closes with the piston crossing the boost relief path.


Quote:









Last edited by 911st; 12-22-2010 at 08:02 AM..
Old 12-22-2010, 07:53 AM
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Thank You Keith !!!

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 12-22-2010, 12:14 PM
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J:

Beautiful Car ( And the correct color, I might add)

You sure didn't miss anything with that build, that thing has to be a serious rocket. Very impressive and well thought out.

With the build as it is you must be going the quick route, me too. The SC cams and the short gears really enhance the light to light fun. Your reference to quicker spool, I wouldn't think, it would be an issue with the set up you have.
You might have considered a K27 7200 or K27S instead of the K27HF with those cams but I would thing the short gears would have made up for the difference.

If your trying to pick it up a bit you might check the cam timing and set it at 1.6 or so to help get some better low end. Adding about 10-12* of initial ignition advance would help also.

That build was made for WMI, it should allow you to run more boost and some more timing. With the WMI it should also help you with detonation with the 8 to 1 CR you have if you start pushing a little more boost.

Love the fact your sticking with CIS so an I. I'm convinced you can make CIS work.

Get us some pics of the WMI project and some better shots of the car.


Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 12-22-2010, 01:07 PM
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My car has 13lbs boost at 2800rpms so It spools pretty quick and with the sc cams I have assume low end. I am just a freak and always looking for more. I am really putting in the MI kit because if I go the 6500 rpms in the lower gears My a/f get close to 12.5 12.7. Here are a couple of pics i found on the store comp....


Old 12-22-2010, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown View Post
I am just a freak and always looking for more.
Ha! That's the mantra that many of us share. Depends on your definition of freak....I would call you a normal person in the 930 world. Either that, or we're all destined for the nut farm.
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:53 PM
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Cole,

Just left you an email...


I got my meth injection kit for Xmas!
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Old 12-27-2010, 04:02 PM
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Bringing this thread back. I have a question for those who have experience with A/W injection on aircooled flat sixes. Does A/W injection reduce cylinder head temperature?

thanks,
anthony
Old 02-21-2011, 12:51 PM
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AXL:

I have not got my engine back in the car yet so I can't give you the first hand impression you're looking for but I did extensive research before I purchased the WMI for the "Old Sled" It has been quoted that WMI will drop head temps as much as 300*.

I just posted this in a previous thread and thought it might help others understand what WMI does and how it does it. The reason I went WMI is that in all my research I never saw anything except great rewards when used in a forced induction application. Quite frankly, after learning the Army Air Corp hand done extensive testing of WMI during WWII, I was amazed that I had not seen it used on 930's.

Take a look, hope this helps !!!



A short quote from an engineering article I read while doing research on WMI:

"In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. This also converts part of combustion energy from the form of heat to the form of pressure. As the water droplets vaporize by absorbing heat, it turns to high pressure steam (water vapor or steam mainly resulted from combustion chemical reaction), that would add engine output. The alcohol in the mixture burns, but is also much more resistant to detonation than gasoline. The net result is a higher octane charge that will support very high compression ratios or significant forced induction pressures before onset of detonation."

Also in WWII the Army Air Corp experimented with WMI on supercharged aircraft engines. During the testing it was noted that they could ran as much as 25 times the compression ratio before they saw detonation. WMI was eventually used on many military aircraft such as the P51 Mustang, the B52, and numerous turbine aircraft. In the case of the P51 the WMI was noted as a significant factor contributing to the P51's reversal of air superiority in the European campaign.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 02-21-2011 at 01:35 PM..
Old 02-21-2011, 01:26 PM
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Let me give you one more wrinkle to the story.

See, at the time it was well known engines made more HP at LEAN mixture best power vs. RICH mixture best power. However at lean best power the engine would quickly overheat, detonate and fail. Enter W/M injection, when the throttle was advanced forward then past a detent the fuel injection (usually Bendix) would pull back fuel to LEAN and add W/M for cooling. More power, no detonation. I don’t recommend running lean best power on our cars, the difference is not as great, but it was worth several hundred HP on a very large engine.

I used W/M on an experimental aircraft turbojet project. It allowed 110% RPM and 10% more thrust.

Last edited by copbait73; 02-21-2011 at 04:07 PM..
Old 02-21-2011, 04:03 PM
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