Wastegate Advice: stock rebuild or Tial? Or?

[donbecker1234]

My 87 with a 79 930 engine makes boost but being inexperienced with it (and not having had Chris @ TurboKraft take a look yet) I'm not sure if the wastegate needs a rebuild or not.

However I've started tracking down details on a rebuild and it seems my choices are:

1. Rebuild my stock looking unit: Rebuild kit is around $370, not sure what that doesn't include.

2. Buy another stock unit: One was just posted today for $450 plus shipping, but is a takeoff with no guaranteed condition.

3. Buy a used Tial for what seems to be $450 or so from past classifieds history.

4. Buy a new Tial for around $500 from Jegs.

I've seen some discussions about difficulty determining the boost level of stock springs (as well as finding them) and the Tial definitely wins in that respect.

Also, as much as it is cool that members figured out how to do a rebuild kit, there's always the possibility that I don't end up doing the rebuild correctly.

It doesn't really bother me using a non-original part, and I'd be fine to stick it in the Porsche parts box for the next owner to find.

However I'd like to hear opinions of more experienced members and see what you folks think.

[reclino]

If you don't care about it being stock put a Tial wastegate on it, and as you said, save your OEM part for the next owner. My kit doesn't include the valve or the seat, both items that can be worn or damaged in use. If you take your wastegate off and get it apart enough to put pictures of the valve and seat I can probably tell you if it can be rebuilt with my kit.

[donbecker1234]

Originally Posted by reclino

If you don't care about it being stock put a Tial wastegate on it, and as you said, save your OEM part for the next owner. My kit doesn't include the valve or the seat, both items that can be worn or damaged in use. If you take your wastegate off and get it apart enough to put pictures of the valve and seat I can probably tell you if it can be rebuilt with my kit.

Just wanted to say thanks for the honest advice although it might mean one less sale.

Class act.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

When I took my stock wastegate apart many years ago, I found that the inner perimeter of the cast aluminum bell was eroded away, about half way around, so rather than have that welded and machined at a repair shop, I bought a Tial - no problems with it (more than ten years of use).

[jons911]

Also take a look at Turbosmart. When I was doing my build Chris had said they switched over to them for wastegates and bov. Plus, JEGs and Summit are always doing a some discount or other.

[JakobM]

Those prices are high!
Just an input...and properly the worst place to give it is on a porsche forum where several shops in here are present to protect business. But here goes... You can get the copies of both tial and turbosmart for litteraly 10 times cheaper, and they work just as fine. They do have other names today on ebay and aliexpress, but looks the same. Internals are fine with same tolerances and cope with same heat. You can even get the extended cooling plate versions of Tial now in copies (again in different brand). They last for years in drifting/racing competition, so a 930 on a street is no better or worse. Tial and TS (and porsche OEM) do also fail.

The typical saying is you get what you pay for. That is not always true. That is particular wrong for intercoolers, ECU's etc. (another story), and also for wastegates. Just buy two of them for a total of 100$ if you doubt quality and you can still afford 8 more for the price of 500$ of one TS or Tial. For all Wastegates, you always pressure test them before installment, so you know they work. Outsite you cannot tell the difference - same look. And properly some shops are selling the knock-offs as original for higher margins. When I leak and pressure test wastegates, I see same leakage on the bottom port in copies and original purchased $$$ versions, it is same same from new and on years after in used versions. Fail rates has been similar (very few on both types).

The real argument is "buy US or AU made" which is all fine arguments, but those prices do challenge the principle when you can get a completely similar legal product (different brand name) for 10 times less and same quality/durability and same look (if looks matters)

[reclino]

Your making the wrong argument.
I made the parts kits available to make it possible to rebuild the factory wastegate. No parts were available from Porsche to service the wastegate. Thanks to the helpful members of this forum I found some NOS parts to make the reverse engineering process faster.
Then I made a small batch of bespoke parts that duplicate the NLA factory parts.
I sold all the first batch and decided to make more.
Is this the cheapest way to put a wastegate on a car?
Nope.
Is the Porsche wastegate somehow better than another quality wastegate.
Nope.
Does it cost more to make small batches of parts?
Yes.

[flightlead404]

I have a Tial F46P I believe is the model number. Works fine AFAICT. I purchased with the .8bar spring.

I'm considering getting 1bar spring. We'll see what things look like if I can get is onto a dyno before The Fall of The Cities.

[donbecker1234]

Originally Posted by JakobM

Those prices are high!
Just an input...and properly the worst place to give it is on a porsche forum where several shops in here are present to protect business. But here goes... You can get the copies of both tial and turbosmart for litteraly 10 times cheaper, and they work just as fine. They do have other names today on ebay and aliexpress, but looks the same. Internals are fine with same tolerances and cope with same heat. You can even get the extended cooling plate versions of Tial now in copies (again in different brand). They last for years in drifting/racing competition, so a 930 on a street is no better or worse. Tial and TS (and porsche OEM) do also fail.

The typical saying is you get what you pay for. That is not always true. That is particular wrong for intercoolers, ECU's etc. (another story), and also for wastegates. Just buy two of them for a total of 100$ if you doubt quality and you can still afford 8 more for the price of 500$ of one TS or Tial. For all Wastegates, you always pressure test them before installment, so you know they work. Outsite you cannot tell the difference - same look. And properly some shops are selling the knock-offs as original for higher margins. When I leak and pressure test wastegates, I see same leakage on the bottom port in copies and original purchased $$$ versions, it is same same from new and on years after in used versions. Fail rates has been similar (very few on both types).

The real argument is "buy US or AU made" which is all fine arguments, but those prices do challenge the principle when you can get a completely similar legal product (different brand name) for 10 times less and same quality/durability and same look (if looks matters)

Links to these wastegates?

Any links to more info of these tests you have done to verify them?

Thanks!

[JakobM]

Links: just type wastegate on eBay or aliexpress ... a 38mm “tial” is somewhat 26$ + shipping on Aliexpress. 50$ for 44mm. Same for TS models

I dont do uploads or documentation when I test simple wastegates in my shop. Other things are documented, this is not one of them. So you only have my input in text, but if you look up some of my resent posts I believe I posted a picture of my simple test rig, i think it is in the topic /my comment to why always use a 4 port boost valve and never a 3 valve mac solinoid


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[dos531]

I cant believe I have to say this but...Don't cheap out on a knock off wastegate from ebay to protect your $30,000 porsche engine...

[JakobM]

As said, properly the worst place to post such is in a porsche forum... :-)


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[TurboKraft]

Originally Posted by JakobM

Those prices are high!
Just an input...and properly the worst place to give it is on a porsche forum where several shops in here are present to protect business. But here goes... You can get the copies of both tial and turbosmart for litteraly 10 times cheaper, and they work just as fine. They do have other names today on ebay and aliexpress, but looks the same. Internals are fine with same tolerances and cope with same heat. You can even get the extended cooling plate versions of Tial now in copies (again in different brand). They last for years in drifting/racing competition, so a 930 on a street is no better or worse. Tial and TS (and porsche OEM) do also fail.

The typical saying is you get what you pay for. That is not always true. That is particular wrong for intercoolers, ECU's etc. (another story), and also for wastegates. Just buy two of them for a total of 100$ if you doubt quality and you can still afford 8 more for the price of 500$ of one TS or Tial. For all Wastegates, you always pressure test them before installment, so you know they work. Outsite you cannot tell the difference - same look. And properly some shops are selling the knock-offs as original for higher margins. When I leak and pressure test wastegates, I see same leakage on the bottom port in copies and original purchased $$$ versions, it is same same from new and on years after in used versions. Fail rates has been similar (very few on both types).

The real argument is "buy US or AU made" which is all fine arguments, but those prices do challenge the principle when you can get a completely similar legal product (different brand name) for 10 times less and same quality/durability and same look (if looks matters)

This is quite possibly the worst advice I've seen on here in some time.

I don't know what business you are in, but I don't think it involves having a dynamometer running in your shop day after day for 7 years, and seeing every kind of performance car with parts from all sources.

If you had, you wouldn't be recommending an Alibaba/eBay knock-off wastegate.

We've seen the failures, and seen the resulting losses. It's bad enough that someone's B-series Honda has an engine failure, but those are at least reasonably priced to repair or replace. When you see two turbocharged Porsches suffer catastrophic engine failure from a sticking wastegate...
You know those are going to be very expensive and very time-consuming, but it's also hard to have pity when someone selects mission-critical components based on price and not quality.


Choosing to use a knock-off part for a mission-critical function is like choosing to drive without a seatbelt.

[dos531]

Im just amazed anybody would even suggest cheaping out on a wastegate on these cars

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

This is quite possibly the worst advice I've seen on here in some time.

I don't know what business you are in, but I don't think it involves having a dynamometer running in your shop day after day for 7 years, and seeing every kind of performance car with parts from all sources.

If you had, you wouldn't be recommending an Alibaba/eBay knock-off wastegate.

We've seen the failures, and seen the resulting losses. It's bad enough that someone's B-series Honda has an engine failure, but those are at least reasonably priced to repair or replace. When you see two turbocharged Porsches suffer catastrophic engine failure from a sticking wastegate...
You know those are going to be very expensive and very time-consuming, but it's also hard to have pity when someone selects mission-critical components based on price and not quality.


Choosing to use a knock-off part for a mission-critical function is like choosing to drive without a seatbelt.

[JakobM]

Turbokraft, I respect you have opinion to the price and choice of a wastegate for a porsche, but you should stick to the input sharing and leave the rest of d... measurement @home. No need to start a pissing contest in numbers of dyno time based on your employees in your business. I have dynoed and been mapping my self several years before 7 years ago. And so what? I can easily say I have sen and know more than most when it comes to turbos and turbo applications by dyno and gas turbine testing. And so what? Your argument is ridiculous. You own a dyno for 7 years - congratulation, but still no more dyno experience @ the owner than branding “double billet turbo” for porsche owners and giving advice that less number of turbine blades should make for quicker spool-up as posted in other posts. 7 years, and internal turbo specs are announced left at the suppliers in a company called Turbokraft.

The title in this thread asked for input, I am here due to my 930 toys as a hobby, not linking my input to business promotion. It is a diy forum, keep me out of the promotion pissing contest, thks


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[reclino]

His argument is based on the issue of if an engine blows on one of these toys...... It's a huge cash infusion to put it right. And if your the shop that selected the part, you created the problem, and are responsible to fix it. Eat a few high dollar blown engines and you may change your tune. A single blown engine would probably put a new shop out of business.
Your advise (go to eBay and buy the cheapest wastegate you can get), they look like wastegates so must all be the same). That's like playing Russian roulette with someone else's money.
I said in my response Quality wastegates. I see no proof that bottom of the barrel eBay wastegates are quality.
By the way, this is the internet, you seem shocked that someone jumped in and unleashed some flames on your idea. Get used to it.

[JakobM]

My argument said, expensive or cheap, owner or business, always leak and pressure test before installment. My argument said, I have seen just as many expensive as cheaper wg to fail and not many fail in generel from my point of view. If one dont believe expensive wg fail then testing has not been done. WG wear more out to leak than they get stock. You anyway should have safety setup for a loose bottom end hose as this result in almost same drama as a stuck WG (depending on backpressure and spring setup). That is my input. Price is not the reason for failure. Quality does not always come with a porsche logo and high price. I certainly do understand any safety margin any would take. Price is fine as it works as argument for many people. Just saying alternatives do exist besides price, 1) tials are not 500$ they are more like 350$ 2) equal quality can now days be picked up for much less - Quality and route to market has changed a lot the last 5 years, my rough estimation (within a foot length) is 40-50% of all wg installed on upgraded turbo engines regardless engine type over the last 3 years are wg’s sourced by owners (not business) directly them self at prices between 100-200$. Porsche segment is different, money talks more in this segment than any other community for tuning.

BTW, I dont regard pelican as the usual place for internet BS

[donbecker1234]

What pre-installation tests do people recommend be run on wastegates?

Do they require any special tools or equipment?

I've seen quite a few posts/videos where people are using an aircompressor to see the valve move...and about half those posts someone replies saying it's not a valid test.

What standard/professional ways are wastegates tested?

It's hard for me to think of people buying rebuild kits for stock wastegates but not validating the rebuild?

[Garen]

To each his own, but a few points:

- Of all businesses that have representation here, Chris is likely very close to, if not at the top of giving away free advice. That does translate into immediate loss of sales, but builds a solid reputation. Referencing my own experience, even though I have spent money with him, I feel I have also stolen time from him in the form of long calls as well... As have many of us.

- Some want the original waste gate, so dudes like reclino do what they do, which is totally awesome. Hats-off to them for sure. Sometimes it is actually really cool to keep what came with the car on the car.

- Tial and TS are expensive. Do they have to be? Not sure. Pound for pound, you're right that it's the same amount of material as the cheaper alternatives. The intangible comes from testing and development, and hopefully, at those prices, consistency.

- It's not a d__k measuring contest all the time... But it's worth noting that most OEM race teams always pinch pennies. Believe me they do. And they bought one of the premium brands talked about here for the Ford GT program. That's worth something. A race win, engine-saved, etc. was worth the premium when it actually came out of the budget and was not sponsored.

- Likely, the el-cheapo stuff would work, most of the time, and some will last forever. But if the el-cheapo manufacturer goes to the next cheapest vendor for one of the parts like the diaphragm, there is no guarantee that they would do a downtown test and development cycle. It will likely be a simple vendor-switch, resulting in a product that may have worked really well in its previous version, but is a total unknown in the next one.

Just a couple of pennies worth of thoughts. Some will disagree I'm sure...

[donbecker1234]

Is the general consensus that buying a name brand (TiAL, TS, Porsche) wastegate means people aren't validating it works fine before bolting it on?

When buying one of the name brand wastegates, do they come with any certificate or proof of a validation from the manufacturer?

When I was looking at a possible rebuild of my stock wastegate, I had apprehension that I would know how to or be able to validate the rebuild was done correctly before starting to use it.