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Help me choose the right turbo

Hey Guys,

I've been taking my time to choose the components to use on the 2nd turbo conversion of my '87 Carrera, and I'd like to ask for your recommendation on an appropriately sized turbo for my setup, as I don't think the current one I have is up for the task.

From the research I've done, I'd like to run 1.2 BAR boost. My understanding is that additional internal modifications need to be made once you exceed this threshold (e.g. flame ring the cylinders). I'd like to achieve a HP curve that is versatile enough to be enjoyable both on the street and track. I'm OK to sacrifice a little spool time to achieve more HP. Full boost by 3500 RPM sounds good to me.

Here are the specs:

Narrow body '87 Carrera with 3.3 L turbo cylinders & 8.0:1 compression pistons
Electromotive TEC-3R EMS w/ distributorless twin plugged ignition
Carrera Cams
Custom AMS headers w/ T4 Flange - thick wall
Aquamist HFS-3 Water/Methanol Injection w/ 50:50 mix
Water-to-Air Intercooler
Carrera Intake Manifold
55 lb Bosch injectors with Bosch 044 Fuel Pump

I'd *like* to achieve at least 500 rwhp with whichever turbo I choose. Is this a reasonable target HP for this setup? What's the max HP you would think I could achieve?

With the Water-to-air intercooler setup, it would be pretty easy for me to water cool a ball bearing turbo. What turbo do your recommend?

Thanks!

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Andy - 1987 911 Carrera Coupe

Last edited by polizei; 10-29-2010 at 02:17 PM..
Old 10-29-2010, 09:31 AM
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I think that puts you right in the sweet spot of the GT35R.
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Steve
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1983 3.4L 911SC turbo. Sold
Old 10-29-2010, 10:59 AM
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whatever you choose have your cams custom ground from billet it's a must do
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82 930 Pearl White 3.3 964 cams, K27 HF, Kokeln, fuel enriched, IA fuel head mod, wur mod, crankfire, 2X plug, Aase worked heads. 1bar, GHL, zork, 23/33 bars, low, loud
Old 10-29-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjf911 View Post
I think that puts you right in the sweet spot of the GT35R.
Hey Steve, at what RPM would you think I'd achieve full spool? What do you think the max HP would be with my setup and a GT35R at 1.2 BAR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slyguy View Post
whatever you choose have your cams custom ground from billet it's a must do
I've actually heard from well respected engine builders that Carrera cams are a great match for turbo engines. Just trying to determine which turbo would be a good match for my setup.
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:12 AM
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Minus the Electromotive and meth injection, I have exactly what you want. Mine dyno'd @ 447 but I do not have the sheet. I can only back up the 427 it has done.

Turbo is a Turbonetics T60-1 with an .81AR hot side. Full boost in the 1st gear with the G-50 is around 5500. 4500 in 2nd and ~3500 in 3rd.

I really want the Garret to see if I can get the boost hitting a lot sooner.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-29-2010, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polizei View Post
I've actually heard from well respected engine builders that Carrera cams are a great match for turbo engines. Just trying to determine which turbo would be a good match for my setup.
It's the difference between being good enough and great.
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82 930 Pearl White 3.3 964 cams, K27 HF, Kokeln, fuel enriched, IA fuel head mod, wur mod, crankfire, 2X plug, Aase worked heads. 1bar, GHL, zork, 23/33 bars, low, loud
Old 10-29-2010, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Minus the Electromotive and meth injection, I have exactly what you want. Mine dyno'd @ 447 but I do not have the sheet. I can only back up the 427 it has done.

Turbo is a Turbonetics T60-1 with an .81AR hot side. Full boost in the 1st gear with the G-50 is around 5500. 4500 in 2nd and ~3500 in 3rd.

I really want the Garret to see if I can get the boost hitting a lot sooner.
Hey Tippy,

I read your "scrutinize my turbo setup" thread from a few months ago. Are you currently running the same turbo you were when posting that thread? How much boost are you running?
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:06 PM
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Any chance your headers are set up for a split turbine?

You can not run any of the k27's or the GT35 unless you get the larger T4 hot side option. the GT 35 dose seem to be a good fit.

You might want to check with TurboKraft or AMS. They both have experance with T4 sized turbo's.
Old 10-29-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polizei View Post
Hey Steve, at what RPM would you think I'd achieve full spool? What do you think the max HP would be with my setup and a GT35R at 1.2 BAR?
Just looking at the squirrel performance calculations, it looks like 500 chp is more realistic with max boost at 3400-3800 rpm. A lot depends on how efficient your intercooler and other plumbing is.
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Any chance your headers are set up for a split turbine?

You can not run any of the k27's or the GT35 unless you get the larger T4 hot side option. the GT 35 dose seem to be a good fit.

You might want to check with TurboKraft or AMS. They both have experance with T4 sized turbo's.
I know the headers have a T4 mounting bracket, but I'm not sure how to tell whether they're set up for a split turbine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjf911 View Post
Just looking at the squirrel performance calculations, it looks like 500 chp is more realistic with max boost at 3400-3800 rpm. A lot depends on how efficient your intercooler and other plumbing is.
Interesting calculator they have there. Do you know what the drive train loss is on our cars for 500 crank HP? Since water-to-air I/Cs have such low pressure drop, it looks like I should be able to come close to my HP goal at 1.2 BAR with the right turbo.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polizei View Post
Hey Tippy,

I read your "scrutinize my turbo setup" thread from a few months ago. Are you currently running the same turbo you were when posting that thread? How much boost are you running?
I haven't rebuilt my engine yet so the same turbo. It has a 1-bar spring but creeps to 1.2 bar from time to time. It has a large Tial wastegate (forgot mm, 46?) but still creeps.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-29-2010, 06:56 PM
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You should not have to use so much boost. I know of many 500WHP EFI 930's at 1.0bar.
With 8:1 C/R and 1.2bar boost your engine will have a shortened life on typical high octane pump gas.

Split plenum means the banks are devided right up to the turbo flange. This is a split plenum T4 flange we did for a fellow Pelican:

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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
You should not have to use so much boost. I know of many 500WHP EFI 930's at 1.0bar.
With 8:1 C/R and 1.2bar boost your engine will have a shortened life on typical high octane pump gas.
Hey Brian, thanks for your input here. I'd be happy to limit the boost to 1 bar if I can achieve 500 rwhp and increase reliability. Are the folks you're aware of who have achieved 500 HP @ 1 bar doing anything differently than I'm planning?

Out of curiosity, how much HP should one expect from a properly tuned 3.3 L single turbo at 1.2 bar? I know heads, cams & induction are going to vary, but what would be a general range to expect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Split plenum means the banks are devided right up to the turbo flange. This is a split plenum T4 flange we did for a fellow Pelican:
Would it be possible to modify an existing set of headers to a split plenum configuration? Here's the set of headers from YermanCars that I'll be running:

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Old 10-30-2010, 06:05 AM
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Pull the turbo and see if the two sides of the header are kept separate to the turbo. Usually a split system would have a split wast gate to so it probably is not. I would not worry about if it is or not.

What is the size of the turbo you have on it? That is, how big is the diameter of the intake wheel (inducer). You probably need at least 60mm and 62mm might about right.

Do a search of DonE's posts. There is a chart somewhere where that shows his HP at .8 bar and 1 bar.

Going to from 1 to 1.2 can make up to about 8% more HP.

However, you will probably need fire rings as the head starts to lift at those kind of pressures I hear.
Old 10-30-2010, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polizei View Post
I've actually heard from well respected engine builders that Carrera cams are a great match for turbo engines.
SC and Carrera cams are identical profiles, just timed differently. Seem to recall 993 is almost identical profile as well (modulo ramps for the hydraulic tappets).

With EFI, you should be able to go more aggressive on the profile for better top-end breathing if you want. It won't hurt the low and mid-range as much as with CIS (where you don't have full control over the ignition and fuelling).
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:23 PM
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Andy,
I was able to find the T3 and T4 dimensions for you on the Garrett turbo site. If you have a T4 flange on your headers, I'm curious what turbo you have mounted. Visually, it doesn't seem to require that big of a flange.

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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-31-2010, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
What is the size of the turbo you have on it? That is, how big is the diameter of the intake wheel (inducer). You probably need at least 60mm and 62mm might about right.
This is a picture of YermanCars' headers with his old turbo on there. He's graciously agreed to hold onto them for me until next month when my cash flow is looking better. He confirmed that they're definitely not split. I just him a PM inquiring about the turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Do a search of DonE's posts. There is a chart somewhere where that shows his HP at .8 bar and 1 bar.

Going to from 1 to 1.2 can make up to about 8% more HP.

However, you will probably need fire rings as the head starts to lift at those kind of pressures I hear.
From the research I've done, it looks like 1.2 BAR is the limit of the 911/930 engine without flame rings. In particular, I remember Goran (BeepBeep), responding to a Pelican who said something like, "As long as your AFRs are under control you can run as much boost as you like." Goran went onto explain that this was simply not the case and that things change after 1.2 BAR. Please let me know if I'm missing something here. If the consensus is that there is a material difference in engine wear between 1.0 and 1.2 BAR, then I'll play it conservatively. I'm planning the following to cool the intake change and mitigate detonation:

1. Water/methanol Injection
2. Water-to-air intercooler
3. Twin Plugs
4. Knock sensor

Quote:
Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
SC and Carrera cams are identical profiles, just timed differently. Seem to recall 993 is almost identical profile as well (modulo ramps for the hydraulic tappets).

With EFI, you should be able to go more aggressive on the profile for better top-end breathing if you want. It won't hurt the low and mid-range as much as with CIS (where you don't have full control over the ignition and fuelling).
Hey Spuggy, thank you for this information! I did not realize that SC cams had the same profile as Carreras. I'd love to go after every last HP that my engine could put out, but realistically I need to stick within my budget or else I'll end up not finishing the project due to lack of funds, going into too much debt or have the wife leave me I'd shooting for the most HP I can afford at acceptable level of reliability. I'm seeing many guys on this 930 forum running SC cams, so this is encouraging. The other thing is that I'm trying to avoid having to tear down the engine at all. I know where that leads...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
Andy,
I was able to find the T3 and T4 dimensions for you on the Garrett turbo site. If you have a T4 flange on your headers, I'm curious what turbo you have mounted. Visually, it doesn't seem to require that big of a flange.
Hi Dave - thanks for the info on Garret's T3 & T4 setup. As I mention at the top of this post to 911st, this is a picture from YermenCars of his headers that I'm buying along with his old turbo (which I'm not planning to buy). I've sent him a PM to inquire about turbo.
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:19 AM
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I ran across a fellow selling a turbo that was customized for a 930 owner. I guess the owner decided to go down a different road after it was built. Please let me know if you guys think this is a good fit - here is a description of the turbo:

Quote:
Specs are as follows- Garrett ball bearing Turbo – P Trim Turbine, 67mm compressor, “E” Compressor Cover, .63A/R T31 Turbine

Sort of similar to a T04R- Basically, it falls in between a GT30 and Gt35R- the compressor wheel is like a 3076 and the turbine wheel is a bit larger than a 35R

This is an excellent turbine for a 3.3 motor for both for quick spin up and solid top end. It WILL bolt up to the stock t3 exhaust flange- would really want to run a good set of headers (such as the 1.75" B&B units to flow what this turbine needs. Can support 500Hp no problem with good spin up using the installed .63 A/R housing.
(600HP range the alternate .82 A/R housing (selling that seperately) should be used**)
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:22 AM
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I am not a turbo expert but first it is a T3. Second a 67mm compressor is a lot biger than a Gt35.

Call Turbonetics. They have a new Forged compressor wheel that is lighter, spins up faster, etc. The new generation of GT's are going to this. They can make you a T4 based turbo and fit it to your goals. If you go with a standard bushing they can be almost cheap. Or you can go with there ball bearing.

Again, TurboKraft has the info you need.
Old 10-31-2010, 02:54 PM
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Andy,

As others have mentioned, to achieve your goals your looking at a GT35R with a T4 housing. The new Precision Turbo ceramic ball bearing center sections no longer need water for cooling so you'd only need to run the oil line which is nice. Also, I would steer clear of the air to water intercooler for a street car, its just not necessary. If you run a well designed air to air intercooler, you should be perfectly fine. The 35R will also allow some room for more power down the road if you choose to run more boost.

Old 11-01-2010, 06:43 AM
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