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Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brooks, GA
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I did all of my own work and like the outcome, even though I had some problems. My first problem was buying an Electromotive system that didn't work. For example, while driving down I-75 one day, the engine was missing and losing power. While driving, I called Nic at Electromotive and complained. His solution, shut the engine off (effectively re-booting the ECU) and start it up again. The problem was fixed until the next time I started it.

The next problem was me - I got into boost on a cool motor and promptly put a hole in 3 cylinders and burned the tops of all the pistons (actually, they were frosted).

Then, in a warped quest for more power, I had my 964 cam re-ground into a GT2 cam. The shop who did the grinding, did a crappy job - the lobes were WAY off-center and bent all my pretty custom valves (Xtreme Cylinder Heads made some real pretty ones too).

It probably took me a year of tuning (only 5,000 miles or so) to get the drivability just right - cold weather starts, REAL cold weather starts, hot starts, cold idle, hot idle, mild weather cruise, hot weather cruise - you get the point. Anyone can tune a fuel table at WOT, but it takes time to really tune a motor.

Old 11-08-2010, 06:00 PM
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Infidel
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHNELE View Post
Jonathan, I did not attempt to shortcut anything on this build, I just had some bad luck I guess.
Lincoln, i wasn't talking about you mate, i was just talking in general. I know you've spent a huge amount of time and money with your car, and you were aiming for the best it could be.
Out of curiosity, and going back to something i did say earlier, does the shop that did the work have any racing success building and using the same type of engine you have?

I don't believe that anyone without proper racing development experience building the exact same product will know enough. There are too many things that can go wrong with a high power, air-cooled, turbo engine build for it to be left to chance. Something may work on paper, but put it out there on track and issues you didn't even think of crop up! And it's only with repeated failure, strip, fix, develop, rebuild, race, failure, strip, fix, develop etc etc..... That a proper understanding of what "Really" works comes into play!
Those "expensive" 993 turbo packages RS Tuning sell through Cargraphic, they are only 520PS and 695NM, but RS blew up THREE engines developing that product on the engine dyno. Too much torque buckled the con rods, too much timing and heat destroyed heads etc etc.... And these are guys that already have all the knowledge, it was Mr RS that developed the Yellow Bird.
I know some builds are for stop light drag racing, and some are for track work etc etc... And some people have monster engine builds that put out huge numbers on the chassis dyno and they probably hardly ever get used in anger, horses for courses i guess. But i would urge anyone planning on paying a shop to build a custom engine, to make sure that shop has a proper pedigree in building race engines just the same, and then you know the research and failure has already been done.

And those building their own engines, good luck!! And hats off to you!!
__________________
Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 11-09-2010, 05:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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I own TurboKraft's first EFI converted car. It's run great for close to 20,000 miles post EFI and I expect at least another 40k out of the motor. Only real issue I've had is a burnt out MSD box.

Had the car on the dyno about a month ago - 424rwhp / 363 rwtq at 1 bar of boost. Stock engine, stock intercooler, Turbo S cams and a GT 35R turbo.
Dyno video - YouTube - Dyno Video - 10.13.10.AVI

Schnele - you wouldn't go wrong having your motor and EFI system sorted out by Chris @ TurboKraft, if finding a quality tuner/builder is why you're soliciting feedback.
Best,
John


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHNELE View Post
Please post your build and numbers, share your successful stories with the community and let us know about the shops that did the job, good bad or ugly.
Old 11-09-2010, 07:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
porschesaur
 
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Howdy Chaps,

DonE and David, your input is invaluable - if nothing else as archival information for search engines for the many seeking guidance in making a decision – as this level of candor is rare and a great insight into the reality of this expensive pursuit. Followed both y’all’s builds along the way and my hats off to the builders, on this one occasion for mine, I wanted to write one check to a consummate pro, a month later close the deck lid and then drive it away. In any event, I’m going take this opportunity to ride on the coat tails of Johnathan who’s had a more visible presence on this forum with his project with a few additional observations regarding racing and EFI conversions/engine mod’s.

Racing is the most unyielding teacher for which, quite frankly, there’s no substitute for that experience when moving beyond stock EFI conversions into the (murky) world of mod’s. Racing positively teaches you what does and does not work, humbly in front of your customers/competitors or shop owning peers – no excuses. Sebring ran PCA classes in this year’s event and ALMS competitors ran in the club race beforehand. The modern racing landscape is completely changed, one rarely races against other air cooled turbos anymore – they are too challenging to make competitive - where the bar (pun intended) would be the same if all were in one. To run in the front of the top classes now you must be able handle 4.0 litre 9k rpm sequential shift Grand Am prototype short lived sprint motors running in lightweight outlaw GT3 variants with ABS and traction control usually driven by pro’s. To do so with a 4 to 6 speed manual in a 14 to 35 year old car, lacking any aids to include even power brakes demands perfect drivability across a very broad rpm range. And especially in the post 08 economy, if a customer’s going to take this unconventional route instead of writing a check for 997 RSR shrink wrapped on a pallet, that motor’s got to last and only contain what it takes to win with a safe margin, no one’s in the mood for frequent rebuilds or wrenching in the pits between sessions.

Yes, that’s the premise behind a performance production car and with a slight drop in boost and pump gas, these cars can drive just like one. Here you’ll note this one being started with merely a touch of the key through the window, and then after some impressive pulls on the dyno, no smoke or anything, being backed out calmly, driven over and onto a trailer as docile as any warmed over street car. This next vid now shows it driving from the back to win over all classes above it at Atlanta this year, the fastest GT2 car in PCA and a one time overall lap record holder for VIR with only a 2.6litre. So what’s in it now? 3.0 litre twin turbo with its original 31 year old unpinned cases, crank, heads and even cylinders blowing through a stock carrera manifold and throttle body using the same EFI system as used for other PWR street conversions. In three seasons of running double events with 2 different drivers in race weekends, it’s only now had one light freshening as a precautionary measure for 2011.

Finely tuned engine mgmt unlocks the potential of your superbly overbuilt engine which has more headroom in stock configuration than many know…because they haven’t tested it themselves on the track. A full spectrum race shop (design/build/setup/drive) can – and does to the dismay of those having over shopped a bit for parts before seeking their build – tell you exactly what’s required for what you seek to keep it efficient so you’ll have the option of determining whether that extra bling is worth the entertainment value.

The most efficient return for your performance dollar will be something in the 460 – 480 RWHP level at a bar or less on pump gas, with a broad torque band extending beyond the usual 5,700 or so to about 7,200 which with stock gearing should yield 14 city and over 24 highway and be as docile as any sports sedan. Component wise, beyond headers, a turbo, cams an intercooler (965) and pistons if you want a little more offboost performance, it can remain stock to include the ignition, intake manifold and wastegate though off the shelf header designs may have some bleed off issues at high rpm in cold weather. Here is a typical example of that on the dyno.

Here's to everyone achieving the results they desire, that's what'll keep this expensive hobby alive and relevant.
__________________
Cheerio,
Peter

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Old 11-09-2010, 12:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
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I don't post much here anymore, because I've sold my car, but I was very active in the 930 community during my EFI conversion project that started about 7 years ago. I did the vast majority of the work myself in my garage. But I couldn't do everything; I was sort of the engineer and general contractor; I engaged the help of experts and specialists from coast to coast to do many varied tasks. The biggest challenge and cost wasn't really the EFI system -- it was building a high horsepower engine to take advantage of EFI that would live reliably in a road race/track day environment. This meant a long chain of modifications and upgrades to the whole vehicle system so that it would be balanced and have the longevity I was looking for. It also meant being pretty conservative with tuning, and monitoring the engine closely, so as to stay away from danger zones.

For specs, the engine produced 622 hp and 618 tq at 1.2 bar on 103 unleaded and about 500 hp and 500 tq on pump gas at 0.85 bar. I only ran it in the latter configuration on the track; I never actually drove it with the higher map. It was fabulous to drive, though I only put it on the track 6 times. I have a build sheet for the engine and car that's five pages long, so I won't post it here. PM me if you want to see it. Some time ago, I posted a thread with a bit more of the story and a video I took of and from the car. It's here: 930 in-car track video

It was a hugely rewarding project. But a very expensive one. I think I had a net of about $70K in modifications when I sold it. (Like David, I have a spreadsheet documenting the damage.) Needless to say, I didn't recover my costs! But I have absolutely no regrets. I had a lot of fun with the car, I learned a lot, met and worked with some great people, and fed my passion to build and drive a highly modified 930. Having built and driven this beast will go down as one of my life's great experiences. I woudn't do it again, now that I've done it once, but I can well understand others' desires for a project like this.

Having "been to the mountain," I decided to sell the car while it was in peak condition and get into something different, so I've moved on to GT3s. The new owner of the 930 is a long-time Porsche buff and RLer who started a 930 EFI project that got stalled years ago. He can appreciate all that went into this car, so it's in good hands.

Lincoln, DonE, and David: I've spoken to all of you by phone over the years and have tracked your triumphs and occasional sorrows. Lincoln, I hope you're able to get that engine put back together properly once and for all and have some fun with the car. You've had more than your share of misfortune. I would encourage you to pick someone with the best possible reputation (and current credentials) to set it right. Best of luck to you.

Rob
Old 11-12-2010, 12:42 PM
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I've spent the last 3 years disassembling the program code and maps in the 84-89 DME and after understanding how this factory system works I know many aftermarket systems don't even come close in achieving the level of tune designed into the factory system. These systems where not simply tuned for a static condition as is often done on a dyno on a given day. The factory tuned these systems to run properly under many different conditions, like real cold days -30c as well as real hot days 45c. The system has many compensation maps for IAT as well as CHTs.

I'm not saying aftermarket systems can't be tuned like factory I'm simply saying most folks and tuners can't afford the time and money to do this.

I went an entirely different route in my 3.2L, I kept my stock DME installed a chip emulator then piggy-backed a WBO2 monitoring system that can monitor and record:
AFR
RPM
IntakeAirFlow
CHT
EGTs
MPH - speed

Then the chip emulator and it's software allow me to see exactly what cell within a given map is being selected in real-time as well as altering any map in real-time with car running. This setup allows me to live tune on the dyno. This lets me keep all the major work done by the factory engineers and simply fine tune to my needs and setup.

I can move my DME and WBO2 setup to any other 84-89 car in a matter of 20 minutes and tune any of these cars then burn the new chip and install into the DME.

I simply will say that you need to be very careful when tuning these cars for max torque because the tune may be great for a cold day (0c) but may not work so well on a hotter day 30c without proper compensation. Detonation could be right around the corner on a warmer day even though the tune was far from detonation on the colder day. You really need an experience tuner do do this properly.
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Old 11-20-2010, 06:52 PM
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Happiest when Tinkering
 
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Methanol water injection can be your friend I guess
Old 11-21-2010, 07:53 AM
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At DDDD I know what you mean about the constant in sour deals, but this goes back to John Truman about five years ago blew up my motor twice, yes two times at my expense on the dyno no input from me I was in the next state. After failing to get anywhere with Truman I had him deliver my car to Speedwerks. The first time around I sent them a check for about 30k(basically starting from scratch on the engine from the crank up. Dave Brown formerly of Speedwerks charged me for a harness only to have to pay again for Motec to build a second harness from scratch) and they delivered a car to me that would not start off the truck. Back to Speedwerks we go; I added more custom stuff and the RS interior, Matter cage etc. another $13K picked up the car at Speedwerks and barely made it home upon pick-up Shadetree930 was tailing me at Turbopalooza and told me the car was burning oil and spitting oil at him. Broken valve it could of happened to anyone but it happened to me, back to Speedwerks again this time there is a split among the partners and my car takes an inordinate amount of time to do each time and countless lies told by the shop on a due date, just to back up for an instance, the first time I was told the car was almost done I got the trailer got in my truck and drove to NC from Michigan only to drive back empty, the car was far from ready. Andy McNeil at Speedwerks did his best to make things right, but here it is I have another broken engine and likely another bill I should not have to foot at this point, his partner who is no longer in the shop has some issues that he needs to come to grips with, like honesty. I am sure Dave is very capable, he builds lots of engines and has owned and run some pretty astounding cars 935, 962, Andy is a class winner at Daytona in the 24hr race, though he once commented to me that I pick up the car and I drive it several hours back home, gee i thought they were built for that. I would like to point out that this thread is not meant to take a shot at anyone I just want to get my car right. I am saving my nickels for Turbo Craft to give it one more go and then I will have no choice but to throw in the towel
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Lincoln Phillip
87 930 Motec EFI M600 G50/50 TurboKrafted Hell Hound.
Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, SRT & AEV Dealer pm me for your Mopar needs.
"the 930 is THE CAR that started my PORSCHE love affair..." Magnus Walker
Old 11-22-2010, 05:30 PM
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I guess you can't make this stuff up. Jesus/..You have some patience and some.
Sorry- There are no words for that B.S. to go on.
I personally would have lost it and I will leave it at that.

I hope the Porsche community/builders take notice...........

GL
Walt
Old 11-23-2010, 08:01 AM
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The only thing you can't put a pricetag on in the Porsche community is trust.
Old 11-23-2010, 08:03 AM
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Infidel
 
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That is some sad reading Lincoln, i feel really sorry for you mate, i know the pain too!!
What is the Dollar v Sterling like at the moment? I wonder if it would be possible to ship that engine over here and get Richard Chamberlain to build it for you? And get JUDD to map it..... It would be spot on then matey, you could be assured of that!!
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 11-23-2010, 08:32 AM
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This is really scary to read. I am really sorry to hear about all of your troubles

Jesper
Old 11-23-2010, 09:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #52 (permalink)
 
R.I.P.
 
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It is very unfortunate to have to read about this kind of stuff. Even well known "trusted" builders can leave you high and dry. Funny thing is the shops produce invoices and have you sign them to create a binding contract that protects them in case the customer does not pay. It gives them the right to put a lean on the car. But what about the customer? What does he do to protect himself? Well, nothing really. We go on good faith or word of mouth, where is our "contract"?

I would treat the next shop you go to like any other business relationship. Make a contract laying out exactly what items will be used, what services will be performed and what "expected result" you want. There are always additions and adjustments that need to be made but they too should be very clearly defined.

I hope for the very best on your next, and hopefully last for awhile, build. Buyer Beware / Do not "assume" anything
Old 11-23-2010, 10:50 AM
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The sad thing is that the dollars spent above does not reflect the tens of thousands spent in parts at Imagine auto, some of which I sold off or the $13.2k I spent on the custom G50/50 with Motorsport gears and synchros as well as the GT differential, pedal assembly etc. Truman's invoices were similar as well and I have been at this for some time. The irony here is that I am a car dealer and a licensed attorney, I can never in good conscience do to anyone whathas happened to me.
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Lincoln Phillip
87 930 Motec EFI M600 G50/50 TurboKrafted Hell Hound.
Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, SRT & AEV Dealer pm me for your Mopar needs.
"the 930 is THE CAR that started my PORSCHE love affair..." Magnus Walker
Old 11-23-2010, 11:51 AM
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I have a feeling you will have it the right way this time though so keep the faith with your 930. I'm really sorry you had to go through the hard way even though you chose not to save on any parts of a good rebuild.

It's really a bummer none of the previous shops feeled they could have taken some responsability of the problems?
Old 11-23-2010, 12:18 PM
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Lincoln, The amount of gelt you shelled out is top end and the product should be the best period. I bet the excuses and drama you got from these builders were pathetic. This is why if I go to the next level of turbo, I will stick to year 2002 and up. As much as I love old school cars and to upgrade them with technology, its like shooting in the dark. To much of a risk factor. I remember years ago when I got ripped off (everyday car broke down) from a meineke in the boonies. I had no choices, in the middle of a winter storm blah..blah..Some people would say -water underbridge-move on-etc..etc..
Not me-After doing some investigating and talking to right agencies, justice was done. What is fair and reasonable I don't have a problem of paying/little more.

Walt

Last edited by wjfk32; 11-23-2010 at 12:45 PM..
Old 11-23-2010, 12:33 PM
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OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Linc, Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hopefully the venture will be a success.

On another note, and it might be hard to accept, but what about dialing back the HP for longevity?
Old 11-23-2010, 06:29 PM
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Linc sorry to hear about that, I always just do everything myself. That way if things go wrong i learn from the experience and only have myself to blame. My car may never be as wild horse power wise as some of them here. But it's the best i can do with my own skills.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:24 PM
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I will be glad _to dial the power back but I always stayed on the conservative end.
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Lincoln Phillip
87 930 Motec EFI M600 G50/50 TurboKrafted Hell Hound.
Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, SRT & AEV Dealer pm me for your Mopar needs.
"the 930 is THE CAR that started my PORSCHE love affair..." Magnus Walker
Old 11-23-2010, 08:56 PM
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I've been following your thread Lincoln but I remain at a loss for words. I'd have thrown the towel in ages ago but as we all know 930s are an alternate to crack. Hang in there!

Similar to Ken911s post above I too kept things at a low rumble for the sake of longevity. My 930 was mostly stock internals, peak boost setting was limited to 14 psi by programmed values. This way I would never ruin my day with "dial-a-death" just to beat some Viper. In addition to boost limiting my rev limiter was set to 6800, occasionally increased to 7000. Even doped my fuel for track service though the boost was relatively low. Constant observation of EGT, O2, etc. This is not to say your problems were not that of the builders.

A few locals here use Motorsport Design (MoDe) Bob Holcomb out of Phoenix for both street motors as well as high output race motors. From what I'm aware of they have a significant reputation building race motors, and those I watch here are the real deal in both output and longevity. Though they seem to have virtually no web presence I can't help notice the name is rarely mentioned here. Perhaps some others can contribute. Be nice to hear from some road racers who run their motors. Credible alternative? Who knows, but perhaps worthy of a call to discuss what they can deliver in terms of turn-key with reliabilty.

Old 11-23-2010, 11:59 PM
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