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Wastegate issues????

I've been having boost problems with my '87 930. It only builds up about .7 to .8 bar of boost, then the boost pressure would rapidly start to fall off from there. The wastegate has a 1.0 bar spring in it, and used to work properly. I've gone through the car replacing I/C o-rings, smoke testing the intake track for pressure leaks, checking the wastegate dump pipe at idle to make sure the wastegate wasn't stuck open, and inspecting the header system for leaks. I did a wastegate test by disconnecting the hose from the I/C for the wastegate and plugging the holes. Being careful on the test drive to not over-boost the engine, I boosted the car to 1.0 bar and it held with no problem. So I took it to Aase Motors in Fullerton, to have them check out my wastegate. They found the washer between the intake and exhaust sides of the wastegate were leaking. So they replaced it. But it didn't fix the problem. So last night, I took the hose for the wastegate off the I/C and put a valve stem in the end of the hose so I could pressurize the tube and wastegate. I was checking to see if the tube had a leak. I put about 20psi in it, which is about 1.37 bar, then I heard leaking air. The leaking air is coming out of the wastegate dump pipe. I happen to have been smoking a cig at the time and put the cig up to the wastegate muffler and watched as I put pressure in the hose again and the smoke was pushed out the wastegate muffler. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the intake pressure isn't supposed to be coming out of the wastegate dump pipe is it?? I'm under the impression that only exhaust gases are supposed to be coming from there right??
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:15 AM
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Hello. it is normal that there will be little air leakage from the exit on wastegate. it is because of a little tollerance between valve and valve guides. But is there much air then your diaphragm bad.


Regards john
Old 01-22-2011, 09:43 AM
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If you disable the waste gate the exhaust system will push enough flow to maintain or exceed 1bar boost as the WG remains shut, even if leaking. When the WG is hooked up and the valve opens it may be opening too soon or too much meaning it is not properly responding to the backpressure of the exhaust and not modulating that pressure correctly. This is a function of the spring, valve, and the diaphragm. Having a leaky seat exacerbates the condition.
If you have checked all other engine systems and they are OK it sounds like it's time for a WG rebuild.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:53 AM
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When my car was at Aase Motors, the guys had my WG apart. The valve and spring looked fine. I didn't look at the diaphragm. Looks like that's the next thing to check
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"You don't have to be CRAZY to own a sports car, but it helps"
Old 01-23-2011, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SIK930 View Post
They found the washer between the intake and exhaust sides of the wastegate were leaking. So they replaced it.
Not sure what this "washer" is that you speak of...are you sure they didn't replace the diaphragm?

Old, toasted wastegates can also leak boost pressure from the valve stem. Might be time for you to pick up a TIAL wastegate.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:04 AM
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Not sure what this "washer" is that you speak of...are you sure they didn't replace the diaphragm?

Old, toasted wastegates can also leak boost pressure from the valve stem. Might be time for you to pick up a TIAL wastegate.
I would have to drag out my old stock WG, but if I recall there is a sealing washer/gasket (probably asbestos...touch it and you can sign up with the TV attorneys to file a lawsuit for asbestosis of the lung...mesothilioma...whatever).

Seems I had a similar gasket leaking (I think it's where the top housing mounts to the lower body, hard to describe). I couldn't find a replacement or suitable material to make a new one out of, so ended up gooping both sides with JB Weld and re-assembling. Worked fine at the time anyway.
Between that and the valve stem wearing out, I just said "fock that crap" and picked up a Tial.
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:40 PM
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you have a ripped diaphram. Take the wastegate and undo the nuts that hold the cap on it, be careful the spring tension is going to blow it apart wehn the last one comes. pull the cap off and look at the rubber diaphrapm, they can go bad. when you put the new one in , lubricate it with talc and make sure you dont pinch it
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:53 PM
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Ok. Just took the wastegate off the car. I tested it off the car and found that the asbestos gasket between the exhaust side and intake side(the canister with the spring in it) is still leaking. Its like the gasket isn't thick enough. I'm going to put a shim with the gasket and hope it seals. When I took the W/G completely apart, I also found that the diaphragm was folded over in a funny way on one side. It didn't have any holes, but I ordered a new one anyway. I'm crossing my fingers, and hope this fixes my boost problems.
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Old 01-29-2011, 07:56 AM
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It should be pretty easy to spot, the wastegate is a pretty simple device as you can see. positive manifold pressure comes in under the bottom of the diaphram and overcomes the spring tension keeping the valve shut. Unless there is a blatant hole are path for that manifold pressure to escape or bleed off, the valve should lift enough to dump the exhaust gasses. the gates flutter a bit under load. Are you sure you dont have a leak elsewhere or a problem? perhaps your boost pressure is tapering off on the pressure side of the manifold somehow, which is influencing the wastegate. But being that you siad with the gate disconnected that you can build and hold boost up to the old levels. Weird. Did you pull the valve out of the wastegate and see if theres any pitting or galling on the stem, maybe something is making it hang up and not seal? The valve seat for the valve if you want to call it that often gets pitted up and not perfect, but I have seen most of them like that, and it never really casued an issue. Its the iron square block that has the angles face that the bottom lip of the actual valve hits and seals against. Its all made from iron, and between age, the materials, the exhaust gasses and moisture, it pits and rusts just like anything would. Might be worth checking just to be sure
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:08 AM
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You know, your original symptoms are displaying "UNDER boost". You said you have a 1.0 bar spring which used to work correctly, but now you can only make .7 or .8 bar "then the boost pressure would rapidly start to fall off from there".

Any fault with the wastegate unit (perforated diaphram, worn guide, leaking signal hose, etc) will result in OVERBOOST, perhaps with the exception of a broken spring.

Your symptoms sound like the intercooler is coming unseated at ".7 or .8 bar" as you say this is when your boost drops off rapidly.

Perhaps you need to reef on the intercooler and see if you can unseat the front or rear O-rings. Also pull up on the pipe connecting the turbo to the intercooler and see if you can unseat the lower end of this pipe.

Good luck, hope you find the issue soon.

Last edited by Jim2; 01-29-2011 at 08:29 AM..
Old 01-29-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SIK930 View Post
I've been having boost problems with my '87 930. It only builds up about .7 to .8 bar of boost, then the boost pressure would rapidly start to fall off from there.
Hello

Just a 2 cents experience...

Last year I've got a similar issue ( boost lost arround 0.2 b) with my C2T with a brand new wastegate and turbo ...

After inspection and thanks to my datalogger, I found the problem came from the dump valve ! In fact, the dump valve piston was partially blocked ( Lubrification trouble) in between position.

It is probably not your case but it won't cost you too much to check this point.

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Old 01-29-2011, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
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You know, your original symptoms are displaying "UNDER boost". You said you have a 1.0 bar spring which used to work correctly, but now you can only make .7 or .8 bar "then the boost pressure would rapidly start to fall off from there".

Any fault with the wastegate unit (perforated diaphram, worn guide, leaking signal hose, etc) will result in OVERBOOST, perhaps with the exception of a broken spring.

Your symptoms sound like the intercooler is coming unseated at ".7 or .8 bar" as you say this is when your boost drops off rapidly.

Perhaps you need to reef on the intercooler and see if you can unseat the front or rear O-rings. Also pull up on the pipe connecting the turbo to the intercooler and see if you can unseat the lower end of this pipe.

Good luck, hope you find the issue soon.
Good thinking outside of the box, and I agree. As you are losing boost versus spiking, it definitely seems like you're experiencing a leak somewhere under load. As Jim said, the IC is a good place to start since there are multiple connections that can potentially come loose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
Hello

Just a 2 cents experience...

Last year I've got a similar issue ( boost lost arround 0.2 b) with my C2T with a brand new wastegate and turbo ...

After inspection and thanks to my datalogger, I found the problem came from the dump valve ! In fact, the dump valve piston was partially blocked ( Lubrification trouble) in between position.

It is probably not your case but it won't cost you too much to check this point.

This is a good suggestion also since the factory bypass valves can easily become a weak point with age and wear (especially any Bosch-type plastic ones). Usually the first, quickest and easiest upgrade on any 1.8T/2.7T VAG cars, some nice billet one.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:38 AM
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I had to shim that asbestos gasket between the spring housing and exhaust housing of the wastegate to get it to stop leaking. And because the old one was folded up funny in the housing, I put a new diaphragm in it with some graphite to lube it. Put it all back together along with a new un-muffled wastegate dump pipe from Fabspeed. Went for a test drive and, S**t, same problem. Only now, I can really hear the wastegate opening at .7 bar of boost. And the search continues?????????
I will try lifting and shaking the I/C, while still bolted on, to see if I can see anything obvious. Thanks
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"You don't have to be CRAZY to own a sports car, but it helps"

Last edited by 1SIK930; 02-01-2011 at 08:33 PM..
Old 02-01-2011, 08:00 PM
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but you have the andial intercooler correct? so you do not have the stock bypass valve assembly that mounts on top of the manifold and the elbow out of the CIS connects through and then continues down to the turbo inlet right? The end caps on that unit can crack after the cushioning gaskets fall apart (They always do) and you can end up with a manifold leak under some circumstances. Id double check all of your connections, clamps, and o rings on your intercooler. The problem seems odd though bc you said if you pull the hose to the wg and drive it you will build and hold boost at full pressure. Just to be redundant, Id double check that the intercooler has no cracks at the tank welds or anywhere, or that the core is ok, and even though it may not be causing it, check timing, pull the cap and check the advance mech in the dist, check the vacuum unit on the dist body make sure its operating and not frozen. Look at all your injector blocks for cracks. How is your mixture, and enrichment? Come to think of it, if your wg diaphram was torn, it just wouldnt lift the valve up and you would actually overboost since the pressure to overcome the spring would be dumping off rather than acting on the diaphram. If the spring was weak, broken, or not there, the exhaust pressure would push open the valve prematurely and it would dump. Now that you have the pipe on the gate, do you hear the full dumping happening under full load with the boost tapering off? It may be tough to hear, since theres so much happening back there under any sort of boost, but you can hear it really barking when its fully open.
Also, dumb question, but how are you determining your boost pressure? Are you going by the stock gauge in the tach? or do you have a mechanical 935 style type that replaces the clock or some other kind? If its electronic, and you are going by that, those arent the most accurate, and the senders can go bad. the straight mechanical type are pretty fail safe, and you may even want to double check it and find and hook up some sort of mechanical pressure gauge and watch it while you drive. you will see them flutter and they will spike when you snap the throttle shut. Does the car feel down on power under boost? It may be tough to tell also, .8 to 1 bar, and esp .7 to the stock .8 is negligable and its not like "holy ****" 1 bar is SOOOOO much a different beast than .8.
Another thing would be to take a look at the inlet and exhaust side impellers and blades on the turbo, maybe there is damage, check the shaft play, see if it looks like something may have gotten in there. Most likely a lot of this stuff will turn up nothing, but at least you will methodically be going through eliminating the obvious variables the best you can. Id be puzzled too . I might try pulling the wg hose again, plugging it, and going out for a test drive again. Be very careful, and spend some time running up the loads, see if you can hold it at .7, .8, 1 bar, and maybe even see if you can try a littel over a bar, 1.2, or in that area. Connect the overboost fuel cut if you feel safer with that and see what you can build if you are nervous. You have the motor built up, and its twin plugged so you should be ok, put some premium in it, and do some data collecting. (I ran my 77 911 turbo carrera with sc cams, k 27, and straight pipe with NO INTERCOOLER EVER INSTALED, and had a 962 boost knob that I kept cranked and running at 1.2 bar all the time, for prob 80k miles that i had the car) and now that i see you have twin plug (I keep looking at your sig) what kind of ignition are you running? are you running coil packs and electronic timing control, or do you still have a mech dist? anyway, that shoudl keep you busy for a bit lol
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:41 PM
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The PO of my 930 recounted a similar experience with me, although a bit more severe. When it was on the dyno, it was nearly shutting down when it hit full boost. He decided to stare at the engine while the tech ran the throttle up, and low and behold, the rubber pipe running from the airbox to the turbo inlet downpipe was collapsing!

He had an aluminum pipe fabricated and the problem was gone.

It's a thought if you have any flexible piping in your intake path.
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:30 PM
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I've already ruled out any intake leak. If I did have an intake leak, that was only allowing me to get .7-.8 bar, the wastegate wouldn't open. Now that I got the new un-muffled W/G dump pipe, I can hear the W/G opening at.7-.8 bar.

I took my muffler off, to check the turbo out. The blades spin freely. I even started it, and revved the engine a bit. The turbo seems fine and spinning freely.

So, I'm leaning towards a weak wastegate spring. I just had the whole thing apart, when I changed the diaphragm, and the spring seemed visually ok.
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:07 PM
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What The F, "over". When I bought the car the guy had an extra muffler setup for it. He didn't like it, because he said it was to loud for him. It's a more free flowing exhaust. I put it on the car, and now I can only get .6 bar of boost. It's worse. So then I disconnected the wastegate tube off the intercooler and took it for a run again. Earlier I posted that I could get over 1.0 bar when I did this experiment before, and that wasn't even full throttle, and now I can't get any more than .6 bar at full throttle with the wastegate disconnected. I'm wondering if my W/G is stuck open. Now, with the louder exhaust, it's harder to hear if the wastegate is opening.
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"You don't have to be CRAZY to own a sports car, but it helps"
Old 02-06-2011, 09:09 AM
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What The F, "over". When I bought the car the guy had an extra muffler setup for it. He didn't like it, because he said it was to loud for him. It's a more free flowing exhaust. I put it on the car, and now I can only get .6 bar of boost. It's worse. So then I disconnected the wastegate tube off the intercooler and took it for a run again. Earlier I posted that I could get over 1.0 bar when I did this experiment before, and that wasn't even full throttle, and now I can't get any more than .6 bar at full throttle with the wastegate disconnected. I'm wondering if my W/G is stuck open. Now, with the louder exhaust, it's harder to hear if the wastegate is opening.
Time for a TiAL F46, send the other Brian a PM!
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:56 AM
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I can get you a TiAL. Bolt it on and if it doesn't cure the problem I'll buy it back from you. Just don't order a pink one.
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:31 AM
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Is there a valve seat between the wastegate casting and the header flange. Is the seat installed correctly? Valve seat could be installed upside down. Are the valve seat and valve mating surface clean and free of pits or burrs. Get a little rubbing compound hand lap the valve to see what kind of seat pattern you have.

The asbestos gasket between the wastegate casting and the Die cast diaphragm housing is there, primarily, to control heat transferee and would nearly need to be
missing a section before it would leak enough to bleed off that much boost. If you feel that gasket is an issue coat the surfaces with K&W Copper Coat Sealing Compound and reinstall.

There is no way to, adequately, check the boost spring rating correctly. There is also no way to check the accuracy of the boost gauge unless you pull it and test it. Also, if the boost gauge is plumbed off the master cylinder vacumme canister the gauges can lag or indicate late.

Remove the boost line from the bottom fitting of the wastegate and put it on the top fitting of the wastegate, plug the bottom fitting. This configuration will use boost pressure to hold the wastegate closed tightly, Make sure your overboost sensor is working. Do a couple runs and see if you can trip the overboost switch. Be carefull it's good to have an observer watching your boost gauge and telling you where you are at.

Are you running a long neck IC with a 964 style BOV or a short neck IC with the old pancake recirculation assy. It could be the Bov diaphragm is ruptured or BOV plumbed backwards. On a pancake assy it can be a stuck shuttle valve or bad seals.

Pressurize the intake track between the turbo outlet and the throttle body and check
for pressure drop. Run a compression check and leak down.

I don't think this is a wastegate issue but your going to have to check everything. So start with whats easy and work through the list. Before I spent $600 for a shiny new pink wastegate I'd suggest considering a EBC that controls, with a solenoid, the operation of the wastegate for $200 or so.

Cole
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Last edited by cole930; 02-09-2011 at 09:59 AM..
Old 02-09-2011, 09:54 AM
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