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Cole, did the 30deg angle serve any purpose that you know of ?

Jeff and the guys at the shop started experimenting with ways to
get the metering plate to move further into the bowl to get that extra fuel
from the fuel head. They ended up modifying the metering plate to get full
travel and the result was 420 HP from a stock motor with SC cams.

Any idea on what they did, or a pic ?
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Last edited by vas930; 03-09-2012 at 11:27 PM..
Old 03-09-2012, 11:15 PM
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This all makes a lot of sense. Aside from turbos and Porsches one of my interests is ducted fans. Ducted fans do not like sharp short inlet conditions (like the typical CIS). They gain significant airflow, averaging 15% more, when a bell mouth flow nozzle or a long straight section is added.
Old 03-10-2012, 06:20 AM
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Cole, finally you decide to post again

As you know, I am by far an expert in this 930 engine thing, but this won't stop me from adding something to the discussion.

You state we don't get enough air, the way I see it, it is not air into the engine that is lacking. We know that a CIS runs lean once we go above approx 400 hp. This indicates that we do get enough air, but need more fuel.

Cole I know what you mean, I think, so semantics maybe, but allow me to continue.

What we need is more pressure on the metering plate to enable us to release some of that potential that is apparently hidden in the CIS. I will call this pressure, dynamic pressure (Pdyn).
Along with Pdyn we have got static pressure (Pstat). Together these form total pressure (Ptot).

Sorry, I'll get back to reality soon...

What we need to move the metering plate is to increase Pdyn, this is effective increasing the speed of the airflow.
Copbait mentions fans like some sort of a duct. We could do that ( looks like the 934 you got going on ), and in the process make sure the intake converges towards the metering plate. This will increase speed , and Pdyn thus enabling us to press down the metering plate a bit more.

The thing is though, the intake will pose a restriction in the flow and reducing the amount of air the engine will be able to suck in.
I don't know is this will ever be a limiting factor, or if we will reach the "true" fuel flow limit on the engine first, but it would be interesting to see if we could obtain the same effect on the metering plate without this restriction.
The special cone you've got Cole poses the same kind of restriction to flow.

I know more skilled people than me have been working on this prior to me, so there probably isn't an easy solution.

I see two different solutions (in theory) for this.

1 we change the intake, the part with the metering plate, so it will be able to flow max air and still deliver max fuel. I think this will be quite comprehensive.

2 We change the way the metering plate reacts when pressure is placed upon it. I am not thinking about altering CPs, but more like a cam, that wil gear down the final travel of the metering plate.
This will reduce the required Pdyn to press down the plate, but the down side is we will not be able to obtain that "true" fuel flow limit.

I have a CIS in the garage, and would really like to take it apart to see what's inside. Them maybe my pst will be quite different, probably.

Anyways Cole, best of luck -awesome thread.
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Last edited by jsveb; 03-10-2012 at 07:06 AM..
Old 03-10-2012, 06:59 AM
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Another angle of the intake

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Old 03-10-2012, 07:04 AM
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Cole, did Jeff and Steve ever get around to testing with the cone installed?
Old 03-10-2012, 07:10 AM
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I'd like to know how they managed control pressure in the 934. With CIS it has to be lowered quite a bit during full throttle boost somehow and I don't see a recognizable control pressure regulator in there anywhere.

..did a trunk monkey reach in and push the metering plate down when the driver pressed the go pedal?

It would be interesting to rotate that 30* angled air duct around the other way and see if the power output of the motor changes during boost.
The 30* angled duct is directing air down onto the metering plate at an angle slighty opposite the direction the air will be traveling in after it flows around the plate and leaves the air flow meter housing.

I can't see through the screen on it in the picture Cole posted but I remember sometimes seeing fiberglass vortex generators mounted just on the turbo compressor intake on early turbo Porsches to make the air spin around before hitting the spinning compressor wheel when I was around those cars 27 years ago.

I wonder if there is a vortex generator under the screen on that air duct. They look sort of like a stationary fan blade mounted edge to edge inside duct and they make the air spin around as it passes through. If there is one under the screen in that 5" duct then maybe making the air spin before it has to flow around the sensor plate makes it so more air can flow around it.

edit: In the second picture jcc911 posted you can see through the screen a little better.
It looks like a 4 bladed vortex generator with very little or no pitch to the blades but you would have see it without the screen while looking straight down on it to know.

Another thought is it's not a vortex generator and the 4 blades go straight down with no swirl almost touching the sensor plate in it's closed at rest position. That would make it so incoming air would have to flow more equally over and around the entire circumfrence of the sensor plate which would probably push it down farther instead of most of the air taking the shortest route and flowing over the plate on the side closest to the 3" hole for the intake hose in the side of the air flow meter housing.
I think the 30* angle of that 5" duct would also help force the sensor plate down farther because of the turn the air has to make in the rounded chamber under the sensor plate as it turbulates around and flows out the 3" hose connection hole.

The stock metal air cleaner housing is offset a little to the right before it reaches the air flow sensor and that would make the air flow spin or swirl clockwise to a degree right above the sensor plate and there is a little cone shaped air director in the middle right above the sensor plate that looks like it's there to direct the swirling air flow outward while it's circulating and flow more evenly over all 360 degrees of the sensor plate as it makes that 90 degree turn downwards.. or something closer to it.

With out some kind of air flow director above the round CIS sensor plate most of the airflow over the sensor plate is going to take the shortest route possible over the far side closest to the 3" exit hole in the side of the housing just under the sensor plate.

Last edited by JFairman; 03-10-2012 at 08:28 AM..
Old 03-10-2012, 07:44 AM
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Jim, that is an excellent point.

What if we put a guide vane in front of the plate where the "arm" would be longest (the left side) then maybe something inside to guide the airflow back to the right.

This might do the trick.

We know guide vanes are widely used today i.e. turbos and jetturbines.

Maybe a variable guide vane hooked up to the throttle cable would be possible?
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Carrera 3.0 1975
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:14 AM
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Guys thanks for your input on this, any and all ideas and observations
on this are heartedly welcomed.

I want you all to know how I am approaching this. I'm a dumb old man
that has forgotten more than he can remember and consequently falls
back on the KISS theory "Keep It Simple Stupid" I am interested in
accomplishing 4 things here.

1. Getting that lost 120HP Jeff found into my car.

2. Building and installing the best air intake I can that will compliment
the added HP and work on my build

3. Accomplish these goals without having to reinvent the wheel or
redesign and re manufacture the fuel distributor.

4. Allow others to take advantage of any benefits in performance
we can get.

What I know to this point.

1. I read Chris Carrolls post about this motor, I saw a print out
of the Dyno sheet, and read Steve Weiner's endorsement.

If someone can find Chris's post I would appreciate them
posting a link or a copy. This was posted within the last
week or two.

2. I, personally, spoke with Jeff and confirmed what he did.

3. Jeff told me they added something to the top of the
metering plate that allowed the plate to travel further into
the bowl and allow full travel of the fuel head plunger which
supplied more fuel.

4. When I told Jeff I had one of the original metering cones he
told me he was familiar with the cone. He stated that what
they added to the top of the metering plate was basicly the
same as adding the cone but they were working with the
stock air filter.

5. Jeff stated his modification did basicly the same thing as the
cone and he would welcome testing the cone and possibly
repoducing them for sale.

From here I have sent the cone to Jeff and he will test it on
the next 930 that comes in. I discussed air intake with Jeff
and he said the original factory was woefully inadequate and
the root cause of limited fuel flow.

I am in the process of building an air intake based on those
used on the original 934's.


Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-10-2012 at 12:09 PM..
Old 03-10-2012, 09:45 AM
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One additional thought about the aircleaner housing design and horsepower - what about how Brian (RarlyL8) has tested the stock aircleaner housing "v" small filter on top of metering plate housing "v" nothing and found no appreciable gains from either setup?

BTW, Cole: I'm not questioning the reasoning behind what you are doing - I like your idea(s)!

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 03-10-2012 at 09:50 AM..
Old 03-10-2012, 09:46 AM
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Holy he!! Cole. Resurrecting race car tech is cool.
Old 03-10-2012, 10:22 AM
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Ronnie:

When I first contacted Jeff it was to find out what he did to the
intake air configuration and air flow meter that allowed the extra HP.

Jeff commented on how the factory air cleaner is made and the
bends, convoluted shapes, and angle changes it goes through before
the air gets to the metering plate. He attributes the lack of air at the
metering plate to that stock air cleaner design.

After modifying the air metering plate the existing air flow allowed
the metering plate to continue to it's full movement which produced
the extra fuel. The extra fuel had always been there and was not
utilized until the metering plate was modified to provide additional
movement. This was done on a stock engine with the CIS mounted in
the stock location and with the stock air filter.

In my application I had installed 934 factory headers which
relocated the position of the turbo.





I also relocated the CIS to the pass side of the engine
compartment so I could shorten the intake track and have
more room in the engine bay.





This repositioning will allowed me to change air intake to this original
934 style.





Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-10-2012 at 12:16 PM..
Old 03-10-2012, 11:39 AM
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Great post Cole. I want one of those airplate things. I know there is a whole thread on this somewhere, I think 911st was posting on it, and maybe your good self.
On the Q of the airfilter, what would the advantage of the inclined stack be, over a straight K&N vertical filter, as I have directly over the airplate?
I definitely want some of those 'free' 420 horses.
Here is a copy off one of those;
The bottleneck gets moved around, But it can never be removed from the equation,

Achieving the necessary air flow capacity upstream of the turbo ( on modified engines) can be addresed by :

1- Re designing the ducting between the A/F meter and the turbo
2- Modifying the A/F meter (cone and Plate)

When these components where designed the target output in conjunction with other relevant factors gave us little room for increased capacity.

When Porsche began testing the 930/71 (934 motor) bosch engineers approached the restriction of the A/F meter by enlarging the diameter and changing from a metering disc to a cone, This BTW had the side effect of poor fuel mixture progression, The location of the unit was selected so that a short duct could be used into the turbo inlet.
These mods where deemed necessary for a 485bhp output

lowering control pressure should be used to allow the engine to accelerate not as a way to reduce the restriction of the A/F meter, 86-89 engines used this strategy by changing duty cycle of the fequency valve during acceleration

As we look at flow capacity in these components we also stand to gain compressor efficiency while reducing lag,

I personally would first focus on the ducting, soon hope to have a solution, then slowly realize that it is very easy to reach the point where EFI becomes the solution to most of these gremlins,

Lou/ AERO DYNAMICS

BTW, thanks , as I see this becoming a very interesting thread.
here is a link to the thread I think I had in mind
Advanced CIS Turbo Tuning Discussion Thread. Ultimate?
Alan
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:59 AM
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Alan:

Hey Buddy, really great to have you join in here, your experience and
knowledge is genuinely needed.

I think you are correct on the EFI content but I'm still hanging in there
on the old CIS. I have a 375 - 400 HP street car and EFI would be more
expense than I can justify and probably a waste on this Old Sled.

We all know that pushing the capabilities of CIS on one of these old
girls has always been a crap shoot anyway. I have always believed
the intake track needed to be shortened ( In spite of many who have
said it would have no effect) and my faith in Mercedes told me their
multi million dollar R&D group would not developed that cone and
installed it on their cars unless it was serving some purpose. I have
also had the metering plate housing recontoured for better fueling. I
have two Bosch 044's supplying fuel and a BL adjustable WUR to back
up my DWUR.

I have no idea why the angle of the air inlet is were it's at but I'm
just going to copy what the factory originally used and see where I land.

None of this can hurt because if I wasn't doing this I would probably
be robbing banks !!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-21-2012 at 02:23 PM..
Old 03-10-2012, 01:28 PM
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Marty:

I had missed your post earlier (my bad) Thanks for comming by.

Want to thank you again for the Zork, it's my pride and Joy and I
just love it, hope I've done you proud with the install.

Your post about ducted air speaks volumes in this application and
it's definatly proven out with what Jeff was able to do on his motor.

Do you have any thoughts on the 934 air intake or the reasoning
behinde the angle?

I'd love to have you stop by if you get up this way, the very best
to you and the family.

AND A SINCERE THANK YOU ALWAYS !!!!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 03-10-2012, 01:45 PM
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Cole, I cant see you robbing a bank.
However, all this R&D on the CIS is great.
The fact is those dudes made over 400hp on a stock engine with sc cams.
I, like you want to know how.
No doubt that EFI is the best.
But, as I said to you last night, it just not an option to all of us.
If we could find 50hp with this system in the original posi, that would be awesome.
The gain with your relocation of the CIS should be more as you have less restriction.
I cant wait for the results on the testing of the cone.
Hell, even 20hp would be worth the time.
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Old 03-10-2012, 01:55 PM
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Great Cole.
Looking forward to hear more about this metering plate cone.

Was some discussions here as well
Advanced CIS Turbo Tuning Discussion Thread. Ultimate?
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Old 03-10-2012, 02:21 PM
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Vas:

Always remember life is not real without knowing the frustration of not
having all the answers.

The secrets of a 934 CIS have alluded us for 36 years and we don't know anymore now than we ever did.

The secret lies in the elimination of those things that we know do not work.

Great talking with you last nite my friend, be safe !!!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 03-23-2012 at 08:26 PM..
Old 03-10-2012, 02:33 PM
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Hi Cole, the EFI bit I posted was a quote from a posting by Lou on another earlier thread on the airplate issue - I should have added some quotation marks to make it clearer. His quote ends at
'BTW, thanks , as I see this becoming a very interesting thread."
Then I posted a link to the thread which has discussed this topic in detail. 911st has spent a lot of time on this topic. The bit I found interesting in Lou's copied post was a degradation in throttle response as a result of the cone.
But we wait with interest any developments here. But you would have to wonder whether it had not occured to Bosch engineers with a mule engine on their dyno as to whether the metering pin was travelling full distance, and whether if they poked it with their finger it would respond.
however 420 horses can't be wrong.
Regards
Alan
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Old 03-10-2012, 03:05 PM
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Cole-

The plate weighs air mass flow.

What I see is basic optimizing of inlet conditions into the metering plate/orifice to eliminate turbulance. Turbulence in this location at higher mass flow could prevent proper metering. A bell-mouth flow nozzle and straight section of tubing (ideally one diameter in height) will accomplish this. Think velocity stack but stubby. (This is not what Brian has with his filter swap.) Probably could find one sold for a four barrel carb.

Looks to be a flow nozzle under the screen in the dirty engine 934 shot. You are not tuning a pulse, you are simply allowing the air inlet to pull in all that is possible and present a uniform column of air to the plate.

Why it is not done on the factory installation? Probably is more about packaging considerations (no room for an ideal situation). These compromises happen all the time. Plus this is a problem outside the normal operating range at their design power level.

Wouldn't mess with attempting turning vanes. One idea discussed is a definite NO-NO. Never place guide vanes in the inlet of these turbo-compressors. The eddy currents they produce excite the inlet blades and can cause blade separation in very quick order.

Last edited by copbait73; 03-11-2012 at 05:46 PM..
Old 03-10-2012, 05:55 PM
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Hi Cole I saw above you are running 2 044 fuel pumps and I am doing some research for my project and would like to ask what size fuel lines do you have are they -6AN or -8AN metric equivalent? My fuel rails are machined for -6AN and I am just curious if it is going to supply enough gas to support 450 hp even with E-85. BTW cool project I know you are old school and CIS so I won't say just EFI it. LOL
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