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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Oily Mess - What caused this and how do I clean it up?

I'm working on a gorgeous but ill-running 965 that was presumed to have cracked headers. After removing the short tube headers I found an obvious culprit. Lost a header sale but saved the guy a couple thousand so he should be happy. Anyway this engine has been leaking oil for some time and I cannot say for sure where it is coming from. I'd like to at least clean it up so this beautiful car doesn't smell so bad. What is the best way to clean this mess without harming anything? Where do you think the leak(s) are coming from?








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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 06-19-2011, 10:52 AM
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possible issues and clean up

Brian,

It could be so many different things. The easiest way to tell for sure is to remove the air shroud on the motor and chase the leak(s) to the source... normally the higher you go the easier it is to see what is happening. It could be as simple as the vent cover in the rear of the motor where the vacumn sensor is or could be as bad as cam seals.. or even broken studs. I would be careful how far you get into a customers car with this sort of issue. It looks pretty bad but may just have built up over time.

I have used mineral spirits before with a brush on the bottom of the motor and simple green spraying it through the fan when the car is cold... then let it sit. Then, start the car for 30 seconds spraying more simple green and then shut her down for 15 minutes. Then, start it and spray water through the fan in a not so agressive fashion. This is a good way to get residue out. make sure after the car cools spray soap and water in there to clean the simple green residue out... just in case. I have had great luck with this product in the past and have been using it on Porsches for years and never had any issues.

Here is a pic of that cover in the back (which I know you are familiar with but wanted to post for others)




Best of luck,
Bryan
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:02 PM
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pull the valve covers and check that none of the rocker arm shafts have shifted over. Common problem, easy to diagnose and fix.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 06-20-2011, 05:00 AM
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you have clean all that gook off and then run it for a while to see where fresh oil is leaking from. pressure cleaner is easist and most efficiant at that and i think you know gunk or whatever solvent based engine cleaner in a spray can, some stiff brushes and a garden hose will get most of it off.
whatever, someone and probably a driveway is going to get dirty and sweaty this time of year doing it.

there's a dented oil return tube on the passenger side but it doesn't look to be leaking much and the exhaust valve guides are worn and leaking oil, you can see that in some of the exhaust ports.

good chance there's oil leaking or sweating from some of the rocker arm shafts, valve covers, cam tower to cylinder head surface, chain cases, and mostly from the oil pressure switch or crankcase breather pipe hose on the top and it's running down by number 6. it also looks like some of the cylinders other than #4 have been seeping or sweating oil at the case spigots - check the head studs.
anotherwords almost everywhere including the bottom of the case halfs so the greasy dirt has to be cleaned off to figure it out but once it's all off it'll look nice and smell better.

it looks like the top end may have been off years ago from scratch marks on the air deflector between the number one cylinder and left side chain case. it'll all have to come off to replace the valve guides and seal things up.
Old 06-20-2011, 05:41 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I kind of figured it was coming from everywhere. Oil is all over the place not just area specific. Agreed this engine could use a freshen up and re-seal. For now I just want to clean it up so it goes back to the owner running, looking, and smelling better. He can then decide when/what to do about the leaks.
I really don't want that mess on my concrete so may put down a lot of cardboard and use foam gunk, wire brushes and a lot of water.
What is the best product to cut this type of thick baked-on oil? Gunk? Simple Green? ???
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 06-20-2011, 06:08 AM
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in my experience gunk is more powerful and simple green like most water based degreasers requires more scrubbing/brushing to disolve and break down the oily dirt buildup and being alkaline PH based it corrodes aluminum to some degree if left on for a while but thats only ugly on polished aluminum.
it is less toxic than solvent degreaser for the person getting it on their skin and maybe the grass around the driveway edges if that matters.
Old 06-20-2011, 06:25 AM
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Brake clean..the non flammable type
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 06-20-2011, 06:46 AM
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+1 on brake clean, as long as it's not caked on brake clean will blow oil right off, mechanic's best friend.
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:12 AM
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I was faced with a similar mess when I was rebuiding my motor. Diesel fuel in a spray bottle worked really well for me. As far as the leaks, looks like you might want start with the oil return tubes, they look pretty suspect, and of course the oil line fittings on both sides.
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:27 AM
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you'd go through around a dozen cans of brake clean to get all that crap off while you inhale the toxic mist from spraying it all over the place, and brake clean only dilutes the oil and grease so it will still continue to coat and stick to everything downstream as it runs off.

gunk emulsifies the grease and oil and it runs off with the water you spray on after it soaks into it around 10 minutes. Once the water is sprayed on and the gook rinses off it turns a milky color and becomes less sticky and doesn't evaporate quickly and stick to everything like a brake clean rinse/mess will do.

brake clean is great for rinsing off brake rotors and final cleaning of mostly clean parts before reassembly but not for a mess this big.
Old 06-20-2011, 07:28 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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It's been a very long time sense I've had to use any Gunk products. I do recall that it works pretty good on this kind of baked-on oil. Is there any advantage to running/heating the engine before applying?
The pictures were taken after the headers were removed, you can only imagine what they look like. The headers are back on now and I have no desire to take them off again. They have the welded-on heat exchangers so it will not be possible to clean up by the cylinders.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 06-20-2011, 08:38 AM
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I use several cans of brake clean like Jim alluded to . it runs every where but does a good job getting it loose and my driveway is already black and oil soaked. Gunk works real well too, but you hose it off and if you are under the car you now have an oily mud puddle to lay in. So pick your poison.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 06-20-2011, 09:26 AM
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I blasted Brake Clean @ my mess and the mess snubbed its greasy nose in mockery of the feeble carcinogen. MAN does that sheeeet SMELL!!! And don't get much of it on your skin - peels it right off... eek!

Gunk engine degreaser, followed up w/ a Simple Green scrub 'n rinse worked for me.

Agreed, pick your poison - it's a hellish mess regardless 8-/. Tho that mess makes me feel pretty good about the little bit I got under mine heh heh! Yeowsers - yeah, that *must* smell pretty bad!
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:10 AM
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I've done this kind of thing using a air pressure spray paint gun filled with mineral spirits ar full power too when i didn't want to be spraying water on things afterwards. That would work similar to the brake clean rinse and it's cheaper and doesn't evaporate anywhere near as fast leaving the gook behind stuck somewhere else.

I don't lay under the car when doing this kind of stuff, I spray the solvent up from the sides and back while the back of the car is up on jack stands, then do the same with the garden hose while rinsing the emulsified no longer sticky gunked junk off.
It's the dirty splash back from the garden hose that gets on you so it's shower time afterwards.

Gunk or a generic copy of it works better on a warm motor like it says on the cans instructions.. works good on a cool motor or transmission too.
Old 06-20-2011, 10:26 AM
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mineral spirits.. cheap and you can brush it on with a paint brush.
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Previous cars:
1987 930, 1975 914 2.0, 1989 944 Turbo S, 1991 964 Targa, 2004 996TT Convertible, 550-6 Spyder with a 2.4 liter twin plug "S-spec'd motor"

Current cars: 2006 Cayenne TTS, 1991 964 Cabrio, 1997 993TT, 1984 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Old 06-20-2011, 11:15 AM
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