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Smart quod bastardus
 
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control pressure values for 3.4 liter with mods

I was looking to get a starting point on my initial WUR set up. I know alot of guys have been using a Leask WUR and have already dialed in their fuel heads so I was hoping to gain a little info to get me started in the right ballpark. From this starting point I can tweak my fuel control pressures to get adequate A/F ratio for my particular engine based upon its O2 sensor feedback.

My engine specs are the following:
stock Euro fuel head and injectors
3.4 liter with SC cams
ported intakes to 36mm
headers with K27S turbo and stock/gutted muffler
B&B intercooler
running 0.8bar boost for now

QUESTION: What is your system pressure and more importantly the warm control pressure you have your adjustable WUR set to?
What cold control pressures if you have the info as well?

Fred
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 06-30-2011, 12:28 PM
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Why wouldn't you just start with this: [look down towards the bottom in the handwritten portion]

WUR specs2
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LIVN80S - - Red '79 Porsche 930 Steel Slant Nose Conversion [in 1987] w. 46k miles 3.3L; 964 Cams; K27HF @ 1.0 BAR, with Garrettson Intercooler; Rarly Zork; CIS Flowtech Fuel Head & BL-WUR.
Old 06-30-2011, 01:09 PM
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That looks like some of my data, did this come from Jim Williams?
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
That looks like some of my data, did this come from Jim Williams?
Don't know, just remembered reading this on rennlist... so, I posted it because it's very thorough and shows the different specs for different years, etc...

It does say 'Jim' on the bottom...
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LIVN80S - - Red '79 Porsche 930 Steel Slant Nose Conversion [in 1987] w. 46k miles 3.3L; 964 Cams; K27HF @ 1.0 BAR, with Garrettson Intercooler; Rarly Zork; CIS Flowtech Fuel Head & BL-WUR.
Old 06-30-2011, 06:46 PM
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OK here goes, I have a 3.4 with 7.5 to 1 compression and a 1 bar spring in the waste gate. I have mine set at the following. 2.0 bar cold control pressure. 3.9 bar warm control pressure. 1.6 bar enrichment pressure at 8 psi boost. In addition to this i had to turn my system pressure up to 7.4 bar, and replace the front pump with a Bosch 044 pump. It finally doesn't run out of gas at full boost. Since most of the CIS gages you buy only go to 7 bar i had to get a new 0-10 bar gage for mine.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 07-01-2011, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken911 View Post
OK here goes, I have a 3.4 with 7.5 to 1 compression and a 1 bar spring in the waste gate. I have mine set at the following. 2.0 bar cold control pressure. 3.9 bar warm control pressure. 1.6 bar enrichment pressure at 8 psi boost. In addition to this i had to turn my system pressure up to 7.4 bar, and replace the front pump with a Bosch 044 pump. It finally doesn't run out of gas at full boost. Since most of the CIS gages you buy only go to 7 bar i had to get a new 0-10 bar gage for mine.
Excellent info. This is exactly what I was looking for.
Thanks so much for taking time to post the info. This should be a good starting point for me now.

Fred
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 07-05-2011, 09:37 AM
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No problem I'm glad i could help it took me over a year to get it all sorted out. I've been afraid to to a leakdown test I'm not sure if the rings surived all if the retuning. Oh and the gas milage a whopping 10mpg around town and 12 on the highway.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 07-05-2011, 11:23 AM
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Well I tried setting my pressures to the specs above and noticed a few odd things:
1) The system pressure initially was only 5.7Bar, so I needed a few shims to get it set at 6.5-6.7Bar where I am at now. It oscillates slowly between the 2 pressures, even though I have a battery charger hooked up to insure full load to the pumps. Before changing system pressure at 5.7Bar the car shut off instantly when I shut off the ignition key. Now at the increased pressure the car runs for 1 second after the key is turned off! Not dieseling but actually running for a second. The engine stops before the ignition delay relay shuts down though which usuall lasts for about 3-5 seconds or so.
ANY IDEAS ON THIS?
2) My cold control pressure at 85 degrees F ambient was 1.8Bar and Warm control pressure was steady at 3.7Bar. With this Warm control pressure I was seeing 14.3 to 1 AF ratio at idle and at light cruise 15.0-15.2 which is too high. Still trying to gather data under boost since I don't have my Innovate gage XD-16 working yet to monitor while driving under boost.
Is this 15 to 1 something to really worry about under light cruise load?
3) I have my Water/meth kit set to start at 3psi boost and it is working fine and I notice no bogging or ill effects to the engine when it comes on. I WOULD LIKE TO GET REAL AF RATIOS UNDER BOOST IWTH AND WTHOUT THIS ON TO COMPARE ITS EFFECTS AS WELL.
Question: How to lower the warm control pressure on the WUR?.... as I dont think driving down the cold control plug on the top of the WUR is the answer. This effects cold control pressure which is fine right now.
Fred
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 07-11-2011, 10:42 AM
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i had to turn up the idle richness setting to lower it back down. the pressure hunting problem went away with the 044 pump. and the running after it's shut off is due to the delay realy mine does the same thing. I had to buy the kit for replacing the pressure control valve and replace the seals in it and use the shims from the old valve added to some of the shims with the new valve to get the pressure right. give me a call if you like about 8 pm tonight 305-246-6928....Ken
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 07-11-2011, 11:25 AM
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System pressure of 5.7bar indicates a problem. You should not mask this by shimming the fuel distributor as it is not a permanent fix. I would put the stock shims back and find the problem before the WUR is adjusted out of wack as well.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:03 PM
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"Question: How to lower the warm control pressure on the WUR?.... as I dont think driving down the cold control plug on the top of the WUR is the answer. This effects cold control pressure which is fine right now."

You can't with a stock WUR but I have my BL adjustable WUR adjusted so warm steady cruise at 75mph on the interstate is 14.8 -15:1 and it runs perfect while getting the best possible gas mileage in 4th gear like that. !5:1 AFR on steady no load flat road operating temperature cruise is not going to hurt anything, I would shoot for that because it works great on mine.

14.3:1 at idle is great if idle is smooth. They usually idle smoother and about 50 -100rpms higher if warm idle AFR is between 13.2-13.8:1 with 13.5:1 a nice middle ground to shoot for.
You can lower your steady cruise AFR down to around 14.7:1 from 15:1 by turning the 3mm CO screw clockwise just a tiny bit at a time and idle AFR will come down to around 13.6:1 at the same time.
Try it you might like it, it only takes a few seconds to do that and you can quickly set it back to where it was if you don't like the result.
Old 07-11-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
System pressure of 5.7bar indicates a problem. You should not mask this by shimming the fuel distributor as it is not a permanent fix. I would put the stock shims back and find the problem before the WUR is adjusted out of wack as well.
thats correct you should check delivery volume and do the test in the manual where you hoOK the cis Gage in between the front and rear pumps. to determine if both pumps are OK. however with a 3.4 and 7.5 to one compression and 1 bar boost the front pump was just not big enough.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 07-11-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
I have my BL adjustable WUR adjusted so warm steady cruise at 75mph on the interstate is 14.8 -15:1 and it runs perfect while getting the best possible gas mileage in 4th gear like that. 15:1 AFR on steady no load flat road operating temperature cruise is not going to hurt anything, I would shoot for that because it works great on mine.
+1.
Lots of modern cars run even leaner than that at steady state cruise (they have knock sensors) for fuel economy.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:38 PM
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I still have the stock CIS with a BL WUR and have noticed similar results. Keep in mind mine is a Euro model. I replaced all my injectors so don't believe in my case it is an injector issue.

I shimmed my FD to raise SP to 6.2 bar. Anything above this caused the run-on you mentioned. BL recently rebuilt my WUR and was set for 1.7 bar CP and 3.85 WP which caused the run-on again. I lowered WP to 3.7 bar and the run-on disappeared.

So what I can determine is if MY SP (FD) or WP (WUR) is raised any higher the 1-2 second run-on is present. Whether this is a FD wear issue or just the way they are I am not sure.

I am still finding the optimal tune for my car in the present climate and may need to raise WP which would mean I would need to remove a shim or two and reduce SP or leave SP at 6.2 bar and leave WP at the lower 3.7 bar. Then again I could raise both and live with the run-on but I am not keen on it.
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Old 07-13-2011, 04:27 PM
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set the stuff back to where it runs best.

to stop the run on permanently unplug the ignition delay relay and cross or jump the 2 wires in it's 4 pin plug that are closest to the motors fan housing.
they are both red wires with a white stripe and one is thicker than the other.

i jumped the 2 wires, left the plug to hang out under the relay panel, and put the delay relay back where it goes with no wires or plug going to it.

stumbling uneven run on will be a thing of the past and you will forget that embarresing annoyance that has to be bad for the crankshaft and rod bearings because oil pressure is so low when it does that... soon.
Old 07-13-2011, 04:59 PM
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I continue to follow your plight Fred, as the data folks are contributing is really enlightening. Thanks everyone.

I'll share my situation as a further datapoint for you, and hopefully also gather some feedback on how to bridge 'the gap'.

I've got a BLWUR, headers/IC/exhaust, and bumped up my system pressure from 6.5 to 7.0-7.1 via a new valve/seals/added a shim or 2. 'The gap' I'm referring to is I have to set my idle to 11.0 to get light cruise AFR to be 15.4-15.5 (that's @ 1050-1100rpm idle, if I drop idle to 1k it's more like 10.8, but I like the higher idle).

Anything higher @ idle cranked cruise AFR >16. I'd like to bridge that gap! I'm assuming a WUR adj can help here? Anyone - please? 8-)

I'm also hitting 12.5-12.7 past 5700 or so, thought I was hitting 13's but doesn't seem to be (pretty damn hard to find road to hit those RPM's - while being able to keep an eye on the AFR gauge heh heh!!!).

Another datapoint, I also now get the run-on after bumping up my control pressure - however it's *barely* notable... like a millisecond and just a stutter/fart after shutdown.

Oh, also - I'm averaging 13-14.0mpg on 26mi highway commutes (2mi backroad to highway / 2mi backroad off highway to office), with a solid mix of both WOT and light throttle farting along / coasting. Sure would like a tick higher 8-/.

Agreed w/ Brian tho, do the flow test as 5.7 means there's likely a problem. I changed out fuel filter / accumulator and did volt test of pumps, I too still need to do the flow test - still recovering from Header Install From Hell 2011 so I'm on sabbatical from my wrenchs 8-)...

Good luck, will def keep following this!
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| '58 TR3A | '01 //S8 | '95 //S6 6gang | '88 ///M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 07-14-2011, 05:52 AM
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Paul, you're AFR's in all situations are so far off the only thing I can suggest is remove the WUR and start over... set everything to stock settings for your year car with a CIS pressure gauge and go from there.

If that is not possible, mail it back to Brian Leask and have him set to 1987 USA car defaults.

Your air flow meter CO adjusment and Brian Leask WUR/control pressure adjustments sound like they are too far out of adjusment and conflicting with each other for me to offer adjustment suggestions from 1400 miles away.
Old 07-14-2011, 10:44 AM
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HA! I'm awesome, remember!

Too funny Jim. Come on up? 8-)

Tx for trying... one of these daze, I'll figure it out...

Car runs like a scalded cat tho, idles great, no off-throttle hesitation, etc. Got that goin for me...
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| '58 TR3A | '01 //S8 | '95 //S6 6gang | '88 ///M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 07-14-2011, 10:54 AM
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With your AFR at idle mine would be oscillating up and down, stinking of unburned gas hydrocarbons and rich mixture, and probably blowing black smoke.
Mine idles at approximately 750 rpms smoothly and averages 13.5:1 AFR at idle and averages 14.9:1 steady warm cruise out on the interstate going around 75mph on level ground.

Not sure what boost AFR will be around 6000rpms in second gear after installing the 044 pump yesterday but if it doesn't start raining I may go find out later.

The front pump that was in my car worked fine and was replaced by the previous owner around 40,000 miles ago according to the folder of receipts that came with the car. I decided to upgrade to the 044 pump anyway though.
The one I removed is a gloss black painted or powder coated Bosch and says "0 580 254 967 made in France" on a sticker on the side. No pressed in or engraved marking or part number I've seen on it.

I've done internet searches and can't find anything about that part number but it fits and worked well.
The body of it not including the outlet part and check valve is about 1/2" shorter than the 044 pump so whoknows.
Old 07-14-2011, 11:30 AM
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mine hunts at idle and stinks but when i set it around 13 or 14 at idle it quits at stop light then will not restart. until it cools off. Jim so you finally got the old pump out without breaking the studs?
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 07-14-2011, 11:46 AM
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