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Tial Wastegate question!!

Hi,

Just had my car at the dyno to adjust EFI settings.
The boost was close to 1.2 bar on DynaPack system. The installed Andial Boost gauge show close to 1.1 bar.

The 46mm Tial wastegate has 1 small red + 1 big red spring. According to Tial this should be 1 bar combination.

Is this common that the spring may vary ?

I would like so run safer and boost at max 1 bar.
Is it recommended to install a softer spring like 0,7 bar and install boost controller?

There is installed a boost solenoid operated by ECU, but this is deactivated since spring already is sat at 1 bar (closer to 1,2 aparently)
Maybe install 0,7 and activate this solenoid ?

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Trond R.
1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo
Old 07-19-2011, 10:16 AM
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totle - both reds should be 1 bar but I've never seen a Tial spring that didn't go a couple pounds higher. Just take the small red out, that should put you around 11-12psi. Then utilize the ECU operated solenoid to up it from there.
Old 07-19-2011, 10:27 AM
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BTW, how much power did it make?????

come on, fess up
Old 07-19-2011, 10:28 AM
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I was quite happy with the result.
Since I had detonation after 2 days on the road when I took the car out this spring after a 3rd gear pull, we was very careful and built new ignition and fuel tables.

I will create a new thread about the detonation and rebuild later. But I had to buy new pistons, valves and turbo :-(

End result 504 rwhp and 635 Nm torque. With 12% drivetrain loss it would be about 565hp/711 Nm at flywheel
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Trond R.
1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo

Last edited by totle; 07-19-2011 at 10:57 AM..
Old 07-19-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
BTW, how much power did it make?????

come on, fess up
yep Totle, time to pay the piper and fess up hp & torque please!

drmatera, what are you makin at the wheels? I'm working on a similar setup to your signature, so that's why I'm interested.
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FS 1987 930 DTAFast EFI w/Electronic Dash, 17x9x11" Lindsey Racing Fuchs, Andial 8.39 R&P, C2 Intake, SuperCup Cams, Flame Ringed Heads & Cylinders, TurboKraft Full Bay Intercooler, RearlyL8 Twin Scroll Headers, Big Bullseye Twin Scroll Turbo...SOLD
1999 Harley Davidson Custom 1250 Hardtail Bobber..SOLD
2014 BMW X6M, 2012 BMW 128i, 2014 GMC Sierra, 2015 Cobia 237 Center Console 300hp Yamaha
Old 07-19-2011, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totle View Post
I was quite happy with the result.
Since I had detonation after 2 days on the road when I took the car out this spring after a 3rd gear pull, we was very careful and built new ignition and fuel tables.

I will create a new thread about the detonation and rebuild later. But I had to buy new pistons, valves and turbo :-(

End result 504 rwhp and 635 Nm torque
WoW

that's a beast
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FS 1987 930 DTAFast EFI w/Electronic Dash, 17x9x11" Lindsey Racing Fuchs, Andial 8.39 R&P, C2 Intake, SuperCup Cams, Flame Ringed Heads & Cylinders, TurboKraft Full Bay Intercooler, RearlyL8 Twin Scroll Headers, Big Bullseye Twin Scroll Turbo...SOLD
1999 Harley Davidson Custom 1250 Hardtail Bobber..SOLD
2014 BMW X6M, 2012 BMW 128i, 2014 GMC Sierra, 2015 Cobia 237 Center Console 300hp Yamaha
Old 07-19-2011, 10:44 AM
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TOTLE - Holy crap man, I didn't know you had problems with the motor. Sorry to hear that, But glad to hear shes alive and well and making big power.

CaptainCalf - I made 384rwhp and 413 rwtq on this Bullseye turbo back when it had the cast wheel. It now has the Billet wheel and we're going to dyno it soon. I'm hoping for a solid 400rwhp at 1 bar.
Old 07-19-2011, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
TOTLE - Holy crap man, I didn't know you had problems with the motor. Sorry to hear that, But glad to hear shes alive and well and making big power.

CaptainCalf - I made 384rwhp and 413 rwtq on this Bullseye turbo back when it had the cast wheel. It now has the Billet wheel and we're going to dyno it soon. I'm hoping for a solid 400rwhp at 1 bar.
That power sounds good to me! I'll be shooting for 450/450, but wouldn't cry if it came in at 400
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FS 1987 930 DTAFast EFI w/Electronic Dash, 17x9x11" Lindsey Racing Fuchs, Andial 8.39 R&P, C2 Intake, SuperCup Cams, Flame Ringed Heads & Cylinders, TurboKraft Full Bay Intercooler, RearlyL8 Twin Scroll Headers, Big Bullseye Twin Scroll Turbo...SOLD
1999 Harley Davidson Custom 1250 Hardtail Bobber..SOLD
2014 BMW X6M, 2012 BMW 128i, 2014 GMC Sierra, 2015 Cobia 237 Center Console 300hp Yamaha
Old 07-19-2011, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totle View Post
Hi,

Just had my car at the dyno to adjust EFI settings.
The boost was close to 1.2 bar on DynaPack system. The installed Andial Boost gauge show close to 1.1 bar.

The 46mm Tial wastegate has 1 small red + 1 big red spring. According to Tial this should be 1 bar combination.

Is this common that the spring may vary ?

I would like so run safer and boost at max 1 bar.
Is it recommended to install a softer spring like 0,7 bar and install boost controller?

There is installed a boost solenoid operated by ECU, but this is deactivated since spring already is sat at 1 bar (closer to 1,2 aparently)
Maybe install 0,7 and activate this solenoid ?
I have a Tial as well with 1 bar installed. But the pressure was the same 1.1bar as with the stock WG. The reason for the boost increasement was the change of the headers, which was discussed on other threads. Headers like B&B, Fabs etc. will end in higher boost level
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930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 07-19-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proffighter View Post
I have a Tial as well with 1 bar installed. But the pressure was the same 1.1bar as with the stock WG. The reason for the boost increasement was the change of the headers, which was discussed on other threads. Headers like B&B, Fabs etc. will end in higher boost level
Hi Roland,

I have a set of custom Marco Manzie headers. Guess it is the same issue.
Do you run with 1.1 bar now?
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Trond R.
1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo
Old 07-19-2011, 12:46 PM
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It's not the wastegate or the spring - it's the improperly designed wastegate circuit on the headers causing the boost creep.
Old 07-19-2011, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totle View Post
Hi Roland,

I have a set of custom Marco Manzie headers. Guess it is the same issue.
Do you run with 1.1 bar now?
No, I have RarlyL8 headers. Same issue before with Schnell (similar to OBX or something Chinese) headers

@E-man930:

You're absolute wright, but I don't like to talk from improper design as almost all performance headers from cheap to very big $ have this behavior.

To be honest, I think the design of those headers is actually better. Why? Because spring rate and manifold pressure are the relevant factors for boost level. If you reach higher boost with same spring, then it can be due better flow or too narrow wastegate circuit. When you look at RarlyL8 headers, then I don't think there is lack of size there, so higher boost is caused by better effectiveness
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proffighter View Post
I have a Tial as well with 1 bar installed. But the pressure was the same 1.1bar as with the stock WG. The reason for the boost increasement was the change of the headers, which was discussed on other threads. Headers like B&B, Fabs etc. will end in higher boost level

+ 1

The aftermarket headers and their wastegate tubing are reponsible of this issue !


I bigger tubing for the wastegate would be the best way to solve this problem.

Of course, you can also reduce the spring rate to get lower boost level.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:53 AM
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Have lowered to 0,7 bar now.
There is an option for 2 boost tables, so will build on on 1 bar and the second on 1,2 bar.

Guess I will have a header project next winter to improve the wastegate tubing to reduce boost creep

Does the Tial 46mm flow good enough or it is recommened to have 2 wastegates ?
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Trond R.
1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo
Old 07-20-2011, 07:12 AM
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I know a V60 with proper plumbing will fix it, not sure about the F46. FWIW, I'm going with twin V44s.
Old 07-20-2011, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totle View Post
Have lowered to 0,7 bar now.
There is an option for 2 boost tables, so will build on on 1 bar and the second on 1,2 bar.

Guess I will have a header project next winter to improve the wastegate tubing to reduce boost creep

Does the Tial 46mm flow good enough or it is recommened to have 2 wastegates ?

I think the 1 TIAL is able to flow correctly in your setup . ( assuming your wastegate outpout is not restricted )

I am curious .... can you program the boost level according the RPM ? Does it includes a PID device ?
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Old 07-20-2011, 07:51 AM
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boost creep is something different.

Boost creep is when the boost gets to the wastegate setting then as RPM increases so does the boost as more exhaust volume is being generated and the gate can not "vent" off enough exhaust to keep up.

Target vs actual is what we are talking about. What causes this differential is the fact that there are an infinite number of engine/turbo combos that have differing pressure ratios due to exhaust housing and wheel size. So when a wastegate advertises a "boost pressure target" it is an estimation. Your results will vary.

Saying the wastegate routing on these headers is "why" he is seeing more boost is wrong. Or at least not entirely correct because I have no trouble setting my boost controller to pull boost down as RPM goes up. That would not be easily done of "boost creep" was present.
Old 07-20-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
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boost creep is something different.

Saying the wastegate routing on these headers is "why" he is seeing more boost is wrong. Or at least not entirely correct because I have no trouble setting my boost controller to pull boost down as RPM goes up. That would not be easily done of "boost creep" was present.
If your boost controller is hooked between the IC and the bottom of the wastegate , I don't see how you can low down the boost level under a lower pressure than the wastegate pressure itself !

Even with a stock turbo, these aftermarket headers and their wastegate plumbing increase the boost level. So it becomes worst with upgraded or bigger turbo.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:55 AM
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I didn't say I lower it below spring pressure. I can control boost vs. RPM. So I can increase boost above the spring pressure up to a certain RPM then lower it as RPM climbs.. Or in the case of when I was trying to wring every ounce of power out of my K27 I had to increase the boost target as RPM went up to keep a flat boost curve till redline.

My point was that wastegate location on these cars is just fine. And that there is a difference between boost creep and target boost
Old 07-20-2011, 03:15 PM
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The wastegate location is fine on the factory setup... (cross over pipe) the stock setup has about two inches of pipe before it gets to the wastegate - not 6 feet of pipe like on the B&B and clone header setup. The only reason it is done like this is to allow your wastegate exhaust parts bolt back in since they have not moved the wastegate even though they have drastically moved the pickup.


Last edited by E-man930; 07-20-2011 at 05:36 PM..
Old 07-20-2011, 03:45 PM
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