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930 gets warm then "leans" out to stall

Motor is a 78 930.

The motor starts right up and idles fine. The LM1 says it runs rich during start up. Once the motor warms up it leans out and stalls. LM1 show the af mixture to climb 14, 16, 18, 26, then the motor stalls.

If it is the WUR, would making it adjustable correct the problem?

Thanks,

John
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-05-2011, 12:02 PM
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beancounter
 
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You need to hook up CIS fuel pressure test gauges and verify system pressure, cold control pressure and warm control pressure. Also a good idea to check boost enrichment control pressure. Your symptom could be related to the warm control pressure being out of spec which could be fixed by repair or replacement of the WUR...a good idea to make it adjustable at the same time
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Jacob
Current: 1983 911 GT4 Race Car / 1999 Spec Miata / 2000 MB SL500 / 1998 MB E300TD / 1998 BMW R1100RT / 2016 KTM Duke 690
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:53 PM
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Thanks. I'll have to read up on how to do that. I'll also look in the tech articles.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-06-2011, 05:10 AM
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beancounter
 
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Here is a good read on CIS

CIS Primer for the Porsche 911

Not turbo specific but will help with the basics.
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Jacob
Current: 1983 911 GT4 Race Car / 1999 Spec Miata / 2000 MB SL500 / 1998 MB E300TD / 1998 BMW R1100RT / 2016 KTM Duke 690
Past: 2009 997 Turbo Cab / 1979 930
Old 08-06-2011, 05:49 AM
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Thank you! I adjusted the idle it was about 925-950. It will not stall if it's closer to 1000. I'll read the link.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-06-2011, 06:41 AM
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I just went through the very same issue. Took forever to isolate the problem too. Like you my Innovate system would show a progressive increase in AFR or a lean situation until the car shutdown. I'd end up left foot braking just to keep the idle speed up.

Check out the relay for your fuel pumps. Mine was cutting out progressively more as it heated up. And the effect was the fuel pumps shut down if only for a brief moment. But as the relay continued to heat, the car would eventually just die (especially at idle) as the fuel pumps stopped working for longer and longer periods. Then I'd sit there waiting (generally at an inconvenient location) until the relay cooled down enough that the pumps would start to work again.
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Mods include: Kokeln IC, GHL Headers, Hooligan muffler, Modified K27 7200, BL WUR, LC-1 & XD-16, Bilstein Sports (4), TRG sway bars, Oversize torsion bars, Strut brace
Old 08-09-2011, 11:40 AM
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I finally got around to checking my fuel pressures.

Hopefully I did this correctly.

My system pressure on a cold motor is 84psi. My cold pressure is 84... My warm pressure is 84...

So my WUR is shot is what I get out of this. If I make this adjustable can I correct the this without replacing it? Or do I need to take away a shim or two from the pressure valve?

Thanks.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-12-2011, 01:26 PM
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Sounds like turbo seals and as suggested relays and or fuel pressures.

Good luck
Old 08-12-2011, 01:39 PM
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What purpose do the vacuum ports serve? Could I convert another WUR from a another application, make it adjustable and use that?

I couldn't help myself I opened up the 930 CPR aka "wur" and wow was it corroded. Look at the pin.



I sourced this other WUR from a Jetta. It looks brand new inside, but does not have vacuum ports. I put it on and it seems to work okay. Pressures are different of course. 74psi for control pressure, cold pressure 72, Warm seems to climb up to 72 also from about 64.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-12-2011, 03:21 PM
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Are you talking about the vent line on the top of the WUR or the vacuum line on the side? For cars without a vent line, I believe there is a vent hole in the WUR beneath the spring. The purpose of the vent line is to prevent the sort of condensation that you experienced and to assist the altitude compensation on the newer 964 3.3 and 3.6 WUR. It is routed into the air filter assembly to vent the WUR. The brass vacuum line that you have on the side of your old WUR is more of a pressure line than a vacuum line. According to the 964 Bentley book (p. 157) this line will reduce the control pressure to 3.2 bar (46 psi) for the 3.3 or 2.9 bar (42 psi) for the 3.6 when it detects 250 mbar (3.6 psi) of boost pressure. Normal control pressure is specified at 4.5 bar (65.3 psi). So the purpose is to enrichen the mixture when boost comes on.

Mark
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:51 AM
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It sounds as though your WUR is shot. If your system pressure happens to be the same as your control pressure(s), then obviously your WUR is not managing pressures at all.

If I were you I would pick up a replacement WUR for the correct year of your car. Adjustability is nice but not necessary unless/until you start doing some beyond stock tuning.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:04 PM
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I may just do adjustable, since this motor has a K27 HF turbo and SC cams.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-15-2011, 04:53 AM
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Brian Leasks adjustable WUR is definately the way to go and he can probably take yours apart, beadblast away the aluminum corrosion and rebuild it. He's fixed them corroded like yours before.
Make sure you have a hose or rubber umbrella thing over the vent line fitting on the top of the WUR or rain and car wash water spray could get into it again and corrode the insides.

If you hose down or pressure clean your motor don't shoot water right at the WUR or some water could get in around the edges of the electrical plug on top and get trapped in there corroding the insides.
Old 08-15-2011, 05:54 AM
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I think I might give a shot at restoring it myself. I mean what do I have to lose? I'll post pics.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 08-15-2011, 08:27 AM
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Update.

Well, my attempt at going through the WUR did not work. I ordered a "rebuilt" wur from a national vendor (reseller) and I had the same symptoms. It thought it might be the fuel head until a fellow pelican lent me his fuel head. I still had the same problems. So, I spoke with Larry and he gave me some test to run that would check flow and pressure.

I had system pressure of 93 with the same at cold an warm pressures. I removed the supply to the WUR an measured the out put. It came in at 250cc which was a little more than adequate, but not overwhelming. After all that it seems like the "rebuilt" WUR may need more work, more qualified work.

I have sent off the WUR for rebuilding an calibration an the fuel head for some static flow testing to ensure it doesn't need work. I would really want to get this car on the road an enjoy it. In the mean while I guess I'll do some valve adjustments.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 10-16-2011, 06:49 PM
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Okay here is a good update.

I was able to take it out for a about a short 5 mile jaunt. It ran great for the most part minus a surging idle. I need to check timing and the mixture.

I ended up sending the fuel distributor head and newly rebuilt WUR to CIS Flowtech for diagnosis. The fuel head was fine, but the WUR pressures were all out of spec. I have to say Larry was great! He was very helpful and patient with me. It was a quick turn around, the service was great, and all is working well.

There were some extra filter baskets in the lines that come out of the fh and go to the injectors. These would get up in the banjo fitting head and cause issues and of course the WUR was misadjusted.

I received my cis stuff from Larry put it on the car and installed the gauges. The pressures looked fine and I fired it up. The car stumbled a little, then settled out. I decided t put the LM-1 on it to see where I was at. Starting up the car cold I'm in the mid 10 range. I think it's a little rich here, but I would prefer rich for now. I still need to check a few things, but the afr's are stable and predictable.

It turned a bad day into a good one. Needed that. Time and kids permitting, I'll check timing and mixture tomorrow. I'll see if can get rid of the surging idle and get the afr's at idle into the low to mid 14 range for idle.

absolutely +1 for Larry at CIS Flowtech.
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John- I blame and thank the longhood boys of Austin
-84 911 Carrera w/ 930 t/p,efi'd,dizzy free,HFS turbo, 78 930 RoW no option sunroof coupe, 64 Corvette roadster, 71 911T, 73 911E, 67 Bronco survivor. 71 FJ40, 95 M3 (for sale)
"Illegitimi non carborundum"
Old 10-28-2011, 07:27 PM
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when warmed up, my idle will surge at anything below 13...

You could probably fix the idle condition with the idle screw. Push in and Turn CCW to Lean. Maybe in 1/8-turn increments...

Remember, that idle adjustment will 'slightly' effect your cruise and boost mixture, too...
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Old 10-29-2011, 03:11 PM
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