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Turbo upgrades, need advice!

Fellow Pelicanites and Boost Junkies, please help me through these upgrades on my 1991 965 Turbo. I have purchased a Fabspeed header and exhaust system (see pic), a new GT35R Garrett Turbo, a Zeitronics AFR system w/ boost sensor, a cold air intake w/ K&N cone filter, and a 1 BAR spring for the stock wastegate.

I have the headers installed and have adjusted the cold and hot side of the GT35R so it fits where the K27/7200 turbo was. Now the questions:

Where can I get or who should I call about making an exhaust flange for the GT35R turbo? The bolt pattern is smaller even though the outlet port is larger than the K27/7200.

There is a tapped port (1/4 NPT) in the cold side air housing (See pic), what is it used for?

Where can I get a spec sheet/air output graph on this GT35R turbo?

Do I need to run a support bracket from the turbo to the engine like the K27/7200 turbo had, or will the header system support the weight of the turbo without it?

The person I bought the GT35R turbo from tells me I need to put a .040" orifice in the oil feed line to the turbo or the stock system will over feed the turbo and make lots of smoke out the exhaust. Sounds awful small to me, I don't want to starve the oil supply but don't want smoke/blown seals either.

Where is the best location for the oxygen sensor bung for the AFR device? My options are 4 inches from turbo before the muffler or 20 inches from turbo after the muffler. Does the OX sensor need to be in the direct exhaust stream or would it be better to have a longer bung so the sensor is not in direct stream?

Where is the best location for my boost sensor (1/8 NPT male) that goes to my AFR gage? I was going to put a "T" in the IC where my stock boost gage mounts. Is that the best location to read true boost?

The exhaust impeller bolt seems to have been modified/ground on for some reason (see pic). Was this done to keep Joe Public from disassembly or was this maybe done for balancing purposes?

Any advantage to using a TIAL wastegate over the stock one? The stock WG is in excellent condition but I would replace if there is a HP/boost advantage.

I have to cut/modify my oil catch tank to make it fit the GT35R turbo, should I weld in a vent fitting while I'm making mods? The stock one was vented to the airbox.

What is the typical entry point for the AFR gage sensor wires, firewall in front of motor or firewall in front by brake cylinder?

I will be sending my WUR to Brian Leaske for upgrade and RPM switch also, should I do this mod before firing up the new turbo?

Any suggestions for ease of fire-up and tuning would be greatly appreciated!!
















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1976 911s,2.7, Cobalt blue, G 40 cams, Weber 40 IDA, SSI / Dansk, MSD 6AL
1991 964 Turbo,3.3 ,Polar silver, Fabspeed headers and exhaust, stock W/G, Greddy EBC, Synapse BOV, BL WUR w/ RPM CSV switch, CIS Fuelhead mods, GT 35 Turbo, Snow W/Meth Inj., K&N Cone Air Filter, AAR delete, Decel valve delete, Zeitronics ZR-2 AFR
1994 968 White, bone stock! (son's first car)
Old 08-16-2011, 12:17 PM
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Hi, looking to do a few of the mods you're doing, so interested to read the replies from folk far more knowledgeable than me, but I also use a Zeitronix AFR setup, installed about 2mths ago, but still messing about with it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by jebbach911 View Post
....and a 1 BAR spring for the stock waste gate.
Think you may receive a few comments about it being preferable to up the boost by using a boost controller rather than swapping for a 1bar spring.

Quote:
Where can I get a spec sheet/air output graph on this GT35R turbo?
I'd start here, and if not downloadable, ping them an email...
Welcome to TurboByGarrett.com

Quote:
Do I need to run a support bracket from the turbo to the engine like the K27/7200 turbo had, or will the header system support the weight of the turbo without it?
Personally I'd run a bracket - don't like the idea of that mass bouncing up and down on a manifold. IIRC, the grade of stainless used by Fabspeed isn't perhaps as resistant to fracturing as Rarly's (can't remember the grade of material off the top of my head)

Quote:
The person I bought the GT35R turbo from tells me I need to put a .040" orifice in the oil feed line to the turbo or the stock system will over feed the turbo and make lots of smoke out the exhaust. Sounds awful small to me, I don't want to starve the oil supply but don't want smoke/blown seals either.
I saw something like this mentioned in the FAQ section on Garrett's site a few days ago...have a read.

Quote:
Where is the best location for the oxygen sensor bung for the AFR device? My options are 4 inches from turbo before the muffler or 20 inches from turbo after the muffler. Does the OX sensor need to be in the direct exhaust stream or would it be better to have a longer bung so the sensor is not in direct stream?
I sussed out where to install my sensors (Lamda and EGT) after reading the Zeitronix info on their site; I run a Haywood & Scott system, significantly different pipework from the Fabspeed, which limited me greatly...I'll have to refresh my memory where we welded in the bosses tomorrow, but it may not help you that much - have a read on zeitronix.com

Quote:
Where is the best location for my boost sensor (1/8 NPT male) that goes to my AFR gage? I was going to put a "T" in the IC where my stock boost gage mounts. Is that the best location to read true boost?
There's an 8mm hose leading out from the LHS of the IC; I "t"'d into this, however, I don't think I'm getting a correct reading...the RR session I had last week showed completely stock boost, yet mine (with the better sender that Zeitronix sell) is reading far higher, so I clearly haven't got it right (the RR dyne guys used a vacuum hose also to the LHS of the IC, but I need to have a look and see which one they plumber into).

Quote:
What is the typical entry point for the AFR gage sensor wires, firewall in front of motor or firewall in front by brake cylinder?
I ran all the wires down to the back of the "transmission" tunnel; If you climb into the car, remove the plastic storage cubby (or cassette holder) right behind the handbrake, you'll see an oval shaped access point under the carpet (about 2" x 3") - its sound deadening that when removed exposes a hole. I ran the wires up here, then down the centre console trim, but you'll need to extend the K-type thermocouple wires from the EGT sensor (don't solder them, they need extending using correct connectors otherwise your reading will be off, as it creates a local sensor junction)

HTH,
Spencer
Old 08-16-2011, 02:30 PM
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I was gonna make a sarcastic comment about "real turbos" not needing a stinking O2 sensor until I saw your last pic. That is a beautiful stable of P cars!!! Nice work dude assembling that collection!!!
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:46 PM
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Jeb:

Awsome stable you have there. Looking forward to following you progress.

Wanted to tell you to drop an E-Mail to Chris " The Horsepower God" Carroll at
TurboKraft he has forgotten more about Garrett turbos than most people know.
Chris can help you with about anything you'll need for the install and is the most
stand up guy you will ever meet.

Keep us posted on the project.

Cole
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Old 08-16-2011, 05:12 PM
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Thanks for the input, Spencer!! Very informative, glad to know about the "secret" entry point for the sensor cables. On the EGT sensor, I didn't get that sensor from Zeitronics. Just the O2 and the boost. Is the exhaust gas temp. sensor going to be important tuning information? If so I will order one now.

Cole, thanks for the name drop for TurboCraft. I will give Chris a call and see if he can help me with my turbo flange dilema. I'm following your project closely too, great stuff man, yer my hero!
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1976 911s,2.7, Cobalt blue, G 40 cams, Weber 40 IDA, SSI / Dansk, MSD 6AL
1991 964 Turbo,3.3 ,Polar silver, Fabspeed headers and exhaust, stock W/G, Greddy EBC, Synapse BOV, BL WUR w/ RPM CSV switch, CIS Fuelhead mods, GT 35 Turbo, Snow W/Meth Inj., K&N Cone Air Filter, AAR delete, Decel valve delete, Zeitronics ZR-2 AFR
1994 968 White, bone stock! (son's first car)
Old 08-16-2011, 07:13 PM
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You seem to have gotten the cart in front of the horse. Modification components should be carefully chosen to complement the build you desire, if not you may be disappointed.
The GT35 is a big turbo and big turbos trade top end for lag. The headers will help reduce the lag. Garrett's are not designed for 930's, take Dave's advice and call Chris as he has the parts you will need to adapt it to fit/work.
Leaving off the trubo bracket will stress out the headers and everything else holding this 30 pound lump bouncing in the air. The OEM bracket also locates the turbo properly so that everything else attached to the turbo also fits. If everything will be custom then that no longer matters.
Have the WUR rebuilt and made adjustable before you add the mods. The fuel curve needs to support and complement the new power curve.
TiAL wasegates are artwork. If your OEM WG is original and never rebuilt I would replace it. If it has been rebuilt and works well then add the 1bar spring for a $400 savings. I don't like boost controllers personally, especially with CIS. There is no reason to adjust boost up or down, that is what your right foot is for. Just leave it up and tune the engine to safely run it that way. CIS is not a dynamic system, you adjust it for a specific boost level, it will not compensate for "banzai runs".
965's are great cars that respond well to mods. Take your time with it and the end result will be an enjoyable car that runs smooth as stock and goes like stink!
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:04 PM
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GT flanges can be purchased from ATPTurbo. You should have bought one with a 3" v-band flange instead. Much easier to R&R when servicing

The GT35R is an awesome turbo. I think there are even better Garrett GTX turbos now, which have even better compressor efficiency!
Old 08-16-2011, 08:56 PM
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A GT35R and 1bar on CIS will need to be set up perfectly, fuel pumps will need to be running to spec, and spend time ensuring you have identical fuel from each injector. Also set the system pressure nice and high from the start, it's much better having headroom from the start, otherwise you'll have to go through and retune it ALL again if you find you don't have enough up top..............
I think you'll be at the limit of the stock rods and head studs at this level too! Have you done a health check on the engine, what are the leak down numbers? What's the mileage?

Edit:
It may be an idea to get your fuel head modified for more flow from the start too, i think i've only ever seen GT35R's on EFI builds, you're going to need every bit of fuel you can get, and definitely going to need the RPM switch to iron out the mid range fuel dump
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jebbach911 View Post
I have to ask, but have you spaced the rear wheels outside the guards on the 965?
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:06 AM
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I would double check that threads in the turbo housing - that looks like M10x1.0 to me, not NPT.
(You can purchase Tial air fittings set (m10x1.0) and this will give you a barb to tap boost from to plumb the wastegate)
Old 08-17-2011, 06:18 AM
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Guys, thanks for adding the opinions and input!! Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I need to hear it if I'm going in the wrong direction!!

Brian - Thanks for your input! When I disassembled the stock wastegate I had a spare for comparison. The valve guide is tight and the valve sealing surface not pitted and no build up of carbon. The diaphram looked new so I installed the 1 BAR spring and it's ready.

Jonathan - Great input! Where would I send my fuel head for mods? I would like to do this early on with the BL WUR mod and RPM switch. Engine condition: PO had a leakdown done and the mechanic stated that it has 5% leakage consistent accross all cylinders. Mileage is 114,000. I haven't located any back history yet, but the engine might have already been freshened up. It appears that the engine has been out before.

Spencer - You have a keen eye my friend! That pic was taken before I bought new HRE C93's with the correct offset. The PO installed the 993 turbo twists that had an incorrect offset for the 965.

Now I will begin burning up the phone lines talking to these vendors you guys have turned me on to!! And my WUR is shipping to Brian TODAY!!

One thought, should I get the EGT sensor from Zeitronics to read exhaust temps? Now would be the best time to run the cables for it!!
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1976 911s,2.7, Cobalt blue, G 40 cams, Weber 40 IDA, SSI / Dansk, MSD 6AL
1991 964 Turbo,3.3 ,Polar silver, Fabspeed headers and exhaust, stock W/G, Greddy EBC, Synapse BOV, BL WUR w/ RPM CSV switch, CIS Fuelhead mods, GT 35 Turbo, Snow W/Meth Inj., K&N Cone Air Filter, AAR delete, Decel valve delete, Zeitronics ZR-2 AFR
1994 968 White, bone stock! (son's first car)
Old 08-17-2011, 06:19 AM
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I would go with a PLX sensor setup - and if you want it really nice, get the LCD flush mounted in your gauge ==> www.inyourfaceguages.com The PLX stuff is super easy to setup and is modular, so you can always add more later, and comes with some nifty features.
Old 08-17-2011, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
I would double check that threads in the turbo housing - that looks like M10x1.0 to me, not NPT.
You can purchase Tial air fittings set (m10x1.0) and this will give you a barb to tap boost from to plumb the wastegate)
E-Man930, so this port would only be used if I was going to use a boost controller?
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1976 911s,2.7, Cobalt blue, G 40 cams, Weber 40 IDA, SSI / Dansk, MSD 6AL
1991 964 Turbo,3.3 ,Polar silver, Fabspeed headers and exhaust, stock W/G, Greddy EBC, Synapse BOV, BL WUR w/ RPM CSV switch, CIS Fuelhead mods, GT 35 Turbo, Snow W/Meth Inj., K&N Cone Air Filter, AAR delete, Decel valve delete, Zeitronics ZR-2 AFR
1994 968 White, bone stock! (son's first car)
Old 08-17-2011, 06:25 AM
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No, plumb it to the wastegate even if you are not using a boost controller, this gives you the best place to take boost from. I would recomend a boost controller though - does much more than just hold your boost steady, keeps the gate shut 100% until desired boost level is reached which translates to a quicker spool from the gate not creeping open mechanically from rising boost pressure.
Old 08-17-2011, 06:29 AM
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the air fittings I mentioned ==> Forced Performance Turbochargers: TiAL Air Fitting Set
Old 08-17-2011, 06:31 AM
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Thanks for the info!
I just mearured the threads and it turns out to be 1/8 NPT. I sort of thought it was NPT at first because there is not a machined flat for a sealing washer to tighten against.

Question: If I plumbed this port to my wastegate and I'm not using a boost controller, where does the other side of the wastegate connect to, connect to my Zeitronics boost sensor??
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1976 911s,2.7, Cobalt blue, G 40 cams, Weber 40 IDA, SSI / Dansk, MSD 6AL
1991 964 Turbo,3.3 ,Polar silver, Fabspeed headers and exhaust, stock W/G, Greddy EBC, Synapse BOV, BL WUR w/ RPM CSV switch, CIS Fuelhead mods, GT 35 Turbo, Snow W/Meth Inj., K&N Cone Air Filter, AAR delete, Decel valve delete, Zeitronics ZR-2 AFR
1994 968 White, bone stock! (son's first car)
Old 08-17-2011, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
I would go with a PLX sensor setup - and if you want it really nice, get the LCD flush mounted in your gauge ==> www.inyourfaceguages.com The PLX stuff is super easy to setup and is modular, so you can always add more later, and comes with some nifty features.
Is the PLX sensor set-up the EGT sensor I was asking about? And is it compatible with the Zeitronics data logger?

I tried the inyourface.com site, seems like their site is down at the moment.
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1976 911s,2.7, Cobalt blue, G 40 cams, Weber 40 IDA, SSI / Dansk, MSD 6AL
1991 964 Turbo,3.3 ,Polar silver, Fabspeed headers and exhaust, stock W/G, Greddy EBC, Synapse BOV, BL WUR w/ RPM CSV switch, CIS Fuelhead mods, GT 35 Turbo, Snow W/Meth Inj., K&N Cone Air Filter, AAR delete, Decel valve delete, Zeitronics ZR-2 AFR
1994 968 White, bone stock! (son's first car)
Old 08-17-2011, 07:35 AM
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PLX Devices Inc - USA

Dave puts the LCD into your factory 930 tach - and the rest is PLX, you can buy whatever module & sensor kit you want and plug them in, they all will display in your LCD based on how you want it setup, unlimited options on setting it up... Ditch the Z stuff, and pick up the PLX data logger module - they even have a bluetooth or wifi, and a combo add on to make it real easy to yank your data.

You can email Dave here ==> Dave@C2Turbo.com

Here is a youtube linky as well ==> Custom Porsche C2turbo PLX gauge - YouTube
Old 08-17-2011, 07:54 AM
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We handle fuel head mods as well as WUR. I work with BL to tune those components together to match the needs of the engine. Shoot me an email if interested.
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:08 AM
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5% sounds healthy for an engine with those miles, maybe it has been torn down? I would honestly be careful running that level with stock rods and bolts/studs, it's going to be high 400's with that turbo, maybe even 500fwhp with 1.0bar.
Brian will point you in the right direction for the fuel head mod, it seams you'll have everything you need, other than being sure you won't snap a rod bolt..... And maybe a slightly better cam profile to really make everything breathe...

I'd make sure you have a rock solid bottom end first, you don't need to split the case to do rod bolts, and fit ARP head studs while it's torn down..... Sounds like a lot of work, but when you have a con rod sticking out of the crank case you'll wish you had, and running a GT35r at 1.0bar will be pushing things...... The fueling is a must to get right, check out StuP's thread on balancing the fuel to each cylinder, you need that 'absolutely' spot on
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 08-17-2011, 12:21 PM
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