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Ic upgrade ?

Thinking of upgrading my IC.
I have what looks like an old Andial sport IC.
It seems to work well.
3.4 L Mahle
SC cams
K27
Head work
Fuel kit
Stock headers and old Monty exhaust.
Dont know what power its making, est high 300sHP
I want to keep my A/C and not stuff around to much.
The IC is twenty years old.
Any advantage going for something a bit bigger?
Or just keep it, as it works ok and spend the money on new headers and exhaust.
Is the upgrade worth the money?
If I was to change, any ideas to what?

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:30 PM
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I'll jump in, and I am sure others with more knowledge will follow. My perspective is the intercooler is beneficial only in that it cools the air so you can pack a denser mixture in, and so you can keep the cylinders from overheating. You do not mention what boost you are running. If you are running .8 or .9 boost, for example, I would think you are fine with what you have. I would guess the HP gain from a larger intercooler would be small.

If you are running higher boost or have other tuning that puts your engine closer to the edge in terms of being able to manage heat, then I would think a larger intercooler and some sort of meth/water injection would be worth looking into.
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1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:04 PM
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How much boost are you running and how much power do you want? At 1.0 or 1.1 bar and 400 to 425 fwhp the intercooler should work pretty well. I think you would be better off changing to a larger turbo and maybe a header upgrade, and if you want to move your powerband a little higher, then either 964 or GT2evo cams.

On a side note, is that another Daytona under the pink tarp? Are they yours or do you restore them?
Old 08-26-2011, 04:06 PM
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Sorry 1.0 bar.
I dont want to move the power up the range.
More of an overall question. Wanting to reduce the lag with the exhaust/ headers.
And yes they are two original Daytonas, not mine.
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:26 PM
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Vas:

Hope your doing well buddy !!!!

Andial, for years, has been considered one of the best IC's available. I think the reputation is well deserved. With that said I would also say an Intercooler shouldn't be considered a performance enhancement with the exception of cooler temps. put more into the cylinder as you previously noted. When choosing an IC you want max cooling and efficiency and a long neck design. If your Andial is a long neck I would spend the extra money on other mods directly related to performance enhancement that is cohesive with what you already have.

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 08-26-2011, 04:36 PM
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If you want reduced lag as a bolt on solution, leave the intercooler alone and focus on exhaust. Go with a rarlyl8 header and muffler package.

It's been suggested here before, and Im no expert, but it seems to me tha t a larger intercooler contributes to increased lag as the larger volume takes more time to fill (were probably talking tenths of sec). I'm not suggesting you find a smaller intercooler though (such as the stock intercooler).
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:43 PM
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Thanks Cole.
I have always worked on N/A engines, so I was not sure of the importance of the size of the IC.
I will be doing a fair bit of track work with this car.
This is why I would like to reduce the lag if I can.
If the IC in combo with a good Header/Exhaust system wont make much diff, I will spend the money on the Headers /Ex, and any other changes you guys can think of.
I see Brian makes a nice system, any ideas?
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infraredcalvin View Post
If you want reduced lag as a bolt on solution, leave the intercooler alone and focus on exhaust. Go with a rarlyl8 header and muffler package.

It's been suggested here before, and Im no expert, but it seems to me tha t a larger intercooler contributes to increased lag as the larger volume takes more time to fill (were probably talking tenths of sec). I'm not suggesting you find a smaller intercooler though (such as the stock intercooler).
Thanks, that makes sense.
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:49 PM
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For quicker spool get a more modern turbo with or without(depends on your budget) ball bearing center section.
Old 08-26-2011, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollies930 View Post
For quicker spool get a more modern turbo with or without(depends on your budget) ball bearing center section.
Thanks mate.
That makes sense also.
Is that a fact shared by all?
I see some dont feel thats the case.
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Old 08-26-2011, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infraredcalvin View Post
It's been suggested here before, and Im no expert, but it seems to me tha t a larger intercooler contributes to increased lag as the larger volume takes more time to fill (were probably talking tenths of sec). I'm not suggesting you find a smaller intercooler though (such as the stock intercooler).
Here we go again...your statement is not a true one. With an intercooler it is all about surface area....so therefore the wider and longer the better (or to sound intelligent "efficient"..btw I am NOT intelligent). I designed and built a few different intercoolers for my 930 and the pressure drop is negligible especially with today's modern efficient cores...go as big as you can fit (and can afford)..or go home.

I would like to test one of those Andial units, way better than stock and the RUF units I say, but not sure where it starts choking...B&B intercooler is excellent BTW.

Heat is the enemy..management of heat (and fuel) = longevity and happiness.

Speaking of happiness, can you please share some pics of the 365 / Daytonas that absolutely make my pulse race?
Yasin
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Old 08-26-2011, 05:44 PM
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Thanks Yasin.
The other cars are not mine, so I cant share pics, sorry.
Its not fair to the owner.
I take your point on the IC. Thankyou.
Can you add anything on the Turbo debate?
Do the BB turbos really spool quicker?
If so, anyone have anything to show how much?
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Old 08-26-2011, 06:05 PM
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I have not seen any proof that ball bearings spool significantly faster than the more robust gernal bearing design. To me it is marketing crap. Boost threshold (spool time) is affected by many things, one of them being heat. Your present intercooler is very good for performance street. I would go full bay on a track car. The difference is time spent on boost. A street engine can recover very quickly from short burts of boost followed by cruising speeds. Heat soaking is an issue (stop and go) but again the intercooler will recover very quickly once the car is underway. Add a proper shroud if one is not being used, huge help in cooling.
First thing is get rid of that Monty. I don't care if you get mine or hang a cherrybomb off the back, anything straight through is better than a restrictive baffled muffler.
Short tube headers are a 35WHP bolt-on, equal length tuned 50WHP.
You don't say which K27 you have but with that, 1bar, and headwork there is a lot of potential power corked up right now.
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Old 08-26-2011, 07:09 PM
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Thanks Brian.
Any idea how far away the Heat is on your system?
It gets bloody cold down here in winter.
I take your point on the spool up time.
My intention was to do the headers and exhaust first.
I dont think a gain in top end power is needed in my car, as it scares the hell out of me now.
As I said, for the track days its about removing some of the lag.
I may also drop the final drive ratio.
You will hear from me soon with an order for headers and exhaust.
I will find out what mod K27 I have.
Any more advice from you guys would be great.
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Old 08-26-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow&rusty View Post
Here we go again...your statement is not a true one. With an intercooler it is all about surface area....so therefore the wider and longer the better (or to sound intelligent "efficient"..btw I am NOT intelligent). I designed and built a few different intercoolers for my 930 and the pressure drop is negligible especially with today's modern efficient cores...go as big as you can fit (and can afford)..or go home.

I would like to test one of those Andial units, way better than stock and the RUF units I say, but not sure where it starts choking...B&B intercooler is excellent BTW.

Heat is the enemy..management of heat (and fuel) = longevity and happiness.

Speaking of happiness, can you please share some pics of the 365 / Daytonas that absolutely make my pulse race?
Yasin
No, were not going here again, point was, focus on choked up exhaust for faster spool up, sorry if I headed down a wrong path.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:22 PM
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"I want to keep my A/C and not stuff around to much.
The IC is twenty years old.
Any advantage going for something a bit bigger?"

I've had 2 different Garretson half bay intercoolers on my car and now I have a Kokeln.
The Kokeln is no longer made and it was and still is the best halfbay intercooler ever made for a 911 turbo or 930. intercooler

The high quality louvered fin core in a Kokeln is the same width and thickness as the Garretson but the core is 2" longer front to back. You can feel the rear exit side end tank is alot cooler on the Kokeln after driving the car.
Only downside is it weighs a little more than a Garretson because the large cast aluminum end tanks are around 1/4 - 3/8" thick.

Kokeln really worked at and figured out how to make it as big as possible and still fit under the stock tail with the windsheild wiper motor, stock air cleaner housing, and AC condensor installed.

The halfbay Garretson that was on my car when I bought it had cast end tanks and was a shortneck intercooler. Your Andial is the same one and is made by Garretson and all of them I've seen were easy bolt on short neck intercoolers with cast end tanks.

When a Garretson longneck with hand fabricated polished end tanks appeared for sale here around 4 years ago I bought it and sold my short neck intercooler.
There was no difference in performance under boost but with the long neck intercooler you ditch the obsolete slow responding and heavy factory recirculation blow off manifold and install a small light weight 964 turbo type recirculation blow off valve and CIS rubber elbow hose with mounting boss off the air flow meter to install it. It reacts faster and reduces compressor surge and turbo lag during upshifts. You also need a pipe to connect the rubber elbow hose to the steel down pipe.

So, if you find a good price on a Kokeln - buy it and sell your Garrestson and that is an upgrade that cools the intake air down more than a Garretson so you can theoretically run a little higher boost without detonation if you have at least 93 octane fuel. Especially if you're going to track the car and want to keep your tail mount AC condensor for the street during summertime.
Old 08-27-2011, 10:58 AM
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Thanks JFairman.
Thats a great reply.
I cant ask for more than that.
Anyone want to weigh in on the turbo debate?
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Old 08-27-2011, 01:33 PM
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I may be in way over my head here but I'm going to add my thoughts, just remember, if you take my opinion and a couple bucks you can buy a cup of coffee and that's all I can assure you of.

When, any of us, first get bit by the bug we immediately get delusions of grandeur about building the Ultimate Porsche Weapon, and who wouldn't want that !!!! But always remember the old Hot Rod adage "Horsepower costs money, how fast do you want to go" The two most overlooked considerations when we get the bug are how is the car, realistically, going to be used and how much money do I have to work with.

We all pour over these threads and read of all the cool new s--- available and the projects everyone has going and our minds go nuts over all the things we would like to do with our cars. We run out and buy some cool new add on because someone said it was great and makes more power and then we find out it won’t work because I don’t have this and so I have to buy three more things to make the first one work without blowing my motor. It ends up like a snowball rolling down a steep hill the faster it goes the bigger it gets and at some point it is out of control. It’s no one’s fault but our own because we didn’t have a plan based on how the car would be used and how much money we had to work with.

Ruling out all out race cars as they are in a category all there own but for the typical maniacs here we are looking at two classes of builds. Those who have been fortunate enough to build whatever they want, (three that come to my weak mind are
Reaper, Tom 84930, and Motley 911) and those who have optimized what they had and did it right ( three that come to mind jwasbury, Eman, and fredmeister) I choose these 6 because they are familiar to all of us and there is great pictorial documentation on Tom84930 and jwasbury’s builds.

I am sure everyone knows I am Chris Carroll’s number one fan and I hold him in the highest regard as a person and as one of the very best Porsche Turbo authorities, period. If you look through the documentation thread on the build Chris did for Tom you will see that every single part used in the build was meticulously inspected, modified or replaced based on assuring ultimate performance, reliability, and compatibility of the build. The man planned before he started and followed his plan. And what can one say 870HP 930 Street Car.

I followed jwasbury’s “Jacob” build pretty closely because we were doing many of the same things at the same time. His preparation and attention to detail could be a lesson to all of us. An excellent example of how to work with what you have and do it correctly Jacob had a plan, everything was thought out and selected before he started, and the results speak for themselves.

I think if we all follow the planning leads of the above examples we would find we can more easily meet our expectations, save time and money, and create what fits how we are going to use the car.

I noticed your signature and the modifications you had listed as well as your saying you would be doing some track time. Your mods and mine are much the same and I noticed in particular you have SC cams. SC cams are going to be good to about 6000 rpm and that’s about it. This is not a negative as some might say. The torque curve on the 3.3 turbo starts dropping off about 5600 RPM and revving past 5600 just makes more noise and no more power. I never rev over 6000 RPM. The SC cams were made for that torque range and will give you good low end torque and strong mid range all the way to 5600.

I would suggest setting the cam timing on SC cams at 1.6mm and consider an ignition system change that allows you to program timing and boost retard. I use the MSD 6AL2 programmable. This controller allows you to program your own timing map as well as a boost retard map. The MSD is a good product and reasonable priced. With the ability to program you timing curves you will really see a difference in low end turbo lag.

You mentioned a final drive ratio change. I run a short track 4 speed and the final ratio is 8:37. That change has made the most significant performance difference of any mod I have ever done.

A good set of Brian’s headers and a Zork would be where to spend you money first. I would consider a small dia. primaries, maybe 1 5/8 in. If your turbo happens to be a K27 7200 it should work well with your set up and I would stick with it until I got the exhaust upgrades done. Get with Brian and let him give you some options. Everything he posted was right on, listen to him.

If your present IC isn’t a long neck you should consider a change to the later model long neck with a 964 style BOV set up would help lag quite a bit. If you do look at a new IC you want something with less thickness and as large a surface area as possible. This will give you the best cooling and efficiency with the least tendency for heat soak. My new TurboKraft IC is 3” x 24” x 12”.

Hope all this is of help to you.

Cole
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Last edited by cole930; 09-12-2011 at 12:08 PM..
Old 08-28-2011, 01:04 PM
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Thats a great reply Cole. Thank you.
I will take what you have said and come up with a plan.
Thanks to all that have given advice.
What a great forum this is.
I have been impressed with the kind manner of this forum and the
will of the wise to help people like myself.
Just to let you know I have been around racing my whole life.
Racing karts as a boy and spending every other weekend with my dad racing his
Porsche.
I also did a fair bit of drag racing. At one stage I had a 820hp 336ci N/A chev in
Super Stock. At 2.4hp per ci I have a good understanding of N/A power.
Turbo power is new to me, although many of the basics are the same.
I will let you know what I do and talk to Brian.
I pick up the car this week after a full body resto, so I will post a pic.
Thanks again to all that have given advice.
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Old 08-28-2011, 02:41 PM
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