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JohnJL's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
Wow, you guys need to read up on liquid intercoolers.
So help me understand. What should I read?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
So you just listed ways to achieve the goal while saying it can't be done.
If you are referring to me or Fleiger, none of those suggestions are specific to A/W or A/A.

What is the specific issue you are trying to deal with? Are you getting detonation? Heat-soak? WHat is the problem you are trying to solve?





Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
Thanks for your input
Bit early for passive aggression, isnt it? Just trying to help.

If you want me to keep my real-world experience on this issue to myself then I can oblidge. Just dont ask then.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:07 AM
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Water is a very good thermo-conductor. If you had an infinite water source, a water cooled IC would beat an air-to-air IC hands down. But you don't, you have to circulate water through a water pump(which in its self imparts some energy on the fluid) and another heat exchanger (radiator) to radiate heat from the IC's cooling fluid.
If the IC's heat exchanger's efficiency is 95%(a bit optimistic) and the radiator's efficiency is 90%, you come up with an overall efficiency of 85.5% (95% x 90%).
An air-to-air IC will be more efficient since there is only one heat exchanger process. Today's air-to-air IC's are in the 90% range in ideal settings. But the most important thing about any heat exchanger process is FLOW. A heat exchanger's efficiency is best when there is a ton of ambient OUTSIDE air passing through it.

Focus on getting the best IC for your application and improving air flow through the IC and you'll be better off.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:54 AM
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Guys - In one of drmatera's first posts he indicates that he's not going to track the car and that he's planning to install a large a/c condenser in place of his current air-to-air i/c. I don't think this thread is about air-to-air vs water-to-air. It's about the suitability of water-to-air for drmatera's intended use.
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:00 AM
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Is anyone reading what I posted?

1. Want intercooler out of hot engine bay

2. Prevent intercooler heat soak when sitting still.

3. Allow installation of large a/c condenser in wing.

4. Have cooler air temps than air/air can offer
Old 09-11-2011, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
Is anyone reading what I posted?

1. Want intercooler out of hot engine bay

2. Prevent intercooler heat soak when sitting still.

3. Allow installation of large a/c condenser in wing.

4. Have cooler air temps than air/air can offer
Sorry, got caught up in the hysteria.

1.) why not add thermo-switched fan to reduce heat soak?

2.) see #1

3.) Don't recommend it. Why add more heat to engine bay?

4.) Read my previous post above. If you want to lower your intake charge temps, go with methanol/water injector. There's been dozens of threads posted on the subject.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:20 AM
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I understand this is for the A/C but I still can't let that point you made rest until it has been corrected. It is the engineer in me.

Yes, you can use tricks to lower the temps below ambient- a dedicated A/C unit for the engine, not you; pack the air/air intercooler with ice; spray water onto the air/air intercooler.

The last two tricks are not going to last for extended periods, which may be fine for your intended mode of use.

The first one is more complex and will rob some horsepower from the engine due to parasitic losses just like a supercharger and will add weight so you may end up with a wash in terms of performance.

You seemed to be implying that simply switching to an air/water/air intercooler would allow the temperatures to be below ambient air temperature. This is incorrect. You would have to use the same tricks above but on the intercooler's radiators. Because of the increased number of heat transfer areas it should be less efficient in a race situation than an air/air intercooler and also weigh more.

The water intercooler just moves the air heat exchanger to a different place. You will still need a fan to blow through it if you are not moving fast enough that the air/air unit would heat soak.

Why not just put the A/C condenser where you were going to put the radiators?
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:14 AM
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Funny I don't recall asking for opinions. Just posted up what I was doing

Quote:

Quote de drmatera



Wow, you guys need to read up on liquid intercoolers.

So help me understand. What should I read?




Quote de drmatera



So you just listed ways to achieve the goal while saying it can't be done.

If you are referring to me or Fleiger, none of those suggestions are specific to A/W or A/A.



What is the specific issue you are trying to deal with? Are you getting detonation? Heat-soak? WHat is the problem you are trying to solve?












Quote de drmatera



Thanks for your input

Bit early for passive aggression, isnt it? Just trying to help.



If you want me to keep my real-world experience on this issue to myself then I can oblidge. Just dont ask then.
Old 09-11-2011, 10:11 AM
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Ok this is going in the wrong direction.

When I go drag racing I will fill the reservoir with ice for optimum cooling that will trump ANY air/air cooler. Since tracks typically frown on people watering down the track that rules out spraying water on my current cooler. although this post was never to justify my mods some of you feel I must. So there it is.
Old 09-11-2011, 10:32 AM
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Before I yanked my A/C completely out of my car(from front to back), I insulated all the COLD A/C lines with a spongy "tubing" that slips over hoses(available in many different sizes, and cut as needed Home Depot or hardware store).

It made an incredible difference on the outlet temp of the A/C in the cabin(about 40-45F down into the low 30's), and even in So Cal summer, the A/C finally worked as intended.
Cleaning the HOT A/C discharge lines also helps in heat transfer away from the system.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:02 PM
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Darrin dId you install an ac condenser some other place in the car when you put in the full bay intercooler? I have been thinking about going to a full bay when i do my efi swap. but havent figured out the best way to replace the rear condeser in the wing. I already have only so so ac cooling going down the highway because i have to use a front oil cooler since mine is a slant. I drive mine to work every day so good ac is a requirement.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
Funny I don't recall asking for opinions. Just posted up what I was doing
Then,don't post at all.
Old 09-11-2011, 02:22 PM
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Ken, I moved the condenser from the wing into the left rear fenderwell and added a fan.

Mamut - the feeling is mutual. Not all posts are questions. Some people are just posting their mods, others feel the need to give their opinions. It is a free forum so I have every right to post up my mods and I guess you also have the right to give a useless reply
Old 09-11-2011, 03:44 PM
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Thanks, that will be on my list of mods.

Quote:
Before I yanked my A/C completely out of my car(from front to back), I insulated all the COLD A/C lines with a spongy "tubing" that slips over hoses(available in many different sizes, and cut as needed Home Depot or hardware store).



It made an incredible difference on the outlet temp of the A/C in the cabin(about 40-45F down into the low 30's), and even in So Cal summer, the A/C finally worked as intended.

Cleaning the HOT A/C discharge lines also helps in heat transfer away from the system.
Old 09-11-2011, 03:45 PM
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Hey Darin,
I assume that you want to add A/C condensor on the rear deck that will be part of the A/C system (i.e. for cooling the interior). Not cooling the AW intercooler with A/C system as others assumed. Am I correct? I just wanted to clear this up.

If you want the A/C to perform two functions (cool interior and AW intercooler) then it will be interesting to see how you will design and build the system to make it work.
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:18 PM
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Hey Mike, how you been ?

Yes , I wanted to accomplish 2 things. First to get the intercooler out of the engine bay. Second it would allow me to put a full size a/c condenser in the wing so my a/c would work in Florida's hostile summers. I will rely on a cooling system for the W/A cooler that consists of a heat exchanger and also a reservoir that will be filled with ice when I'm at the track. The a/c system will be totally separate from the intercooler.
Old 09-11-2011, 06:06 PM
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So i take it stuffing it in the fender well with a fan didnt work so well. have you updated it with the Kuel heat exchanger/reciever?
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:36 PM
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Ken, it worked ok but the stock condenser is garbage so I would have had better results with and aftermarket unit in the fender. But I'll bet using a modern r134 condenser as large as possible will only help. And I will retain the fan
Old 09-12-2011, 09:21 AM
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I'm doing good Darin!

Sounds like you will bring the intake temp below ambient temp with your method especially for short runs. It's going to be interesting to see if it works!
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:10 PM
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yeah, A buddy of mine runs a liquid intercooler on his car. The last time out to the track on a 90* day he was enjoying 77* inlet temps at 18psi of boost... I'm looking forward to that, Last time I was there my intercooler got over 170* while waiting to make a pass. As the engine cooled the intercooler was heating up. I figure just removing it from the heat source (engine) will prevent that from happening, then for the really hot days the bag-o-ice trick will keep her cool.

You still interested in that DP wing? I'm getting weak
Old 09-13-2011, 10:55 AM
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So he was icing his?
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:06 PM
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