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drmatera's Avatar
 
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Switching from Air/Air to Air/Water

I am seriously considering/planning on upgrading from my custom air/air full bay intercooler to a custom air/water set-up. My 3.3 motor has a Carrera intake and TB.









Price? $850
Old 09-09-2011, 03:02 PM
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I'm planning to use an air-to-water i/c for my turbo conversion this winter. Very efficient if you can get good flow through a radiator.
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Old 09-09-2011, 05:25 PM
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Yes, I want to put the A/W unit in the left rear fender then put a massive a/c condenser in the wing. The heat exchanger will fit un the front bumper.
Old 09-09-2011, 05:41 PM
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Gee, the way you say that you would almost think it got hot or humid in Florida.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
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Old 09-09-2011, 05:43 PM
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Hahaha, actually it was only 95* and 80% humidity today... Who needs a/c
Old 09-09-2011, 06:41 PM
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Not sure I would make the switch to air\water but to each their own. Lovely IC you have there Dr.
Yasin
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Old 09-10-2011, 02:53 AM
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How did you do it with the MAF on your 3,2 intake and intercooler?
Old 09-10-2011, 03:39 AM
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Does there come a point when the engine starts making so much power via intercooler/headers/turbos that the reliability of the engine falls off a cliff?
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:17 AM
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MrShades - My engine doesn't use a MAF, It's an aftermarket EFI system.

Tilikum Turbo - Sure, but the more efficiently an engine can produce that power and deal with the thermal loads the "safer" it is. Since I am getting ready for a complete rebuild with Pauder rods and LN Engineering P&C's these mods I'm doing are just a prelude to things to come. I don't road race this car, it's my weekend toy that goes to the drag strip occasionally and a few WOT hits on the street but no more than 10 seconds of WOT at a time. I made 450rwhp a couple of weekends ago @ 18psi of boost but I've got the boost down to 1 bar for normal activity. Once the engine rebuild is complete I'm shooting for 650-700hp.... Besides I'm a hotrodder and just can't leave well enough alone
Old 09-10-2011, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow&rusty View Post
Not sure I would make the switch to air\water but to each their own. Lovely IC you have there Dr.
Yasin
Yes, Porsche always wanted to use an air/air intercooler on the 935 but Kremer was the only ones that could make it work. I think they said it would be worth 20 hp (which is not a whole lot when you are making the kind of power 935s were).
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1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:18 AM
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FWIW, last time I was wandering around in Harbor Freight tools I saw two different 12 volt water pumps with stainless impeller housings and NPT fittings that are currently on sale.
Maybe the better one would work for your purpose but I know you have access to alot of this kind of stuff at wholesale.

They are about the size of WMI pumps and look pretty good.

This one is the better of the two and is currently $38.
12 Volt Marine Utility Water Pump
Old 09-10-2011, 09:22 AM
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I'm gonna stick with the Meziere pump Bulkhead/Radiator and Remote pumps, Remote Mini Inline Water Pump, MZR-WP136S | RacePartSolutions.com that I sell. Most of the marine "bilge pumps" are not designed for continuous use and this thing will be running when the car is.

The best an Air/Air intercooler can do is get the charge close to ambient.. A liquid/air will get it below ambient and will not heat soak as quickly. The worst part of our 930's design is having the intercooler sitting over the engine. Heat rises, and the engine is a heat pump. I'm going to mount the liquid/air unit in the left rear fenderwell so there will be no heat soaking at all when the car is sitting still. The theory of every 10* is equal to 1% more power means it could get very interesting on a 95* hot summer day down here in Florida sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. My cooler will be "chillin" (pun intended) out of the way of the engines heat, so the car will think it's in January weather when I mash the gas
Old 09-10-2011, 10:22 AM
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A water intercooler cannot get the air below ambient or even to ambient temperature. The only way you could do that is to hook an air conditioning system up to it, taking advantage of a phase change, compression/expansion of a refrigerant and so on.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 09-10-2011, 10:27 AM
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What are your intake air temps at 18 psi? I stuck a scirocco radiator shroud and twin fans pulling air through an intercooler about the size of yours an my intake temps never get more than 20 degrees over ambient.

Are you knocking? Or is the A/W plan just to facilitate your AC plans?
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
A liquid/air will get it below ambient and will not heat soak as quickly. My cooler will be "chillin" (pun intended) out of the way of the engines heat, so the car will think it's in January weather when I mash the gas
An A/W intercooler on its own will not get below ambient under any circumstances. Are you saying you are going to feed the engine airconditioned air?

You can get the same "chilling" effect by disbursing an expanding gas into the intake, like methane or nitrous oxide ;-)
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 09-10-2011, 05:36 PM
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Or if you pour water onto the air/air intercooler.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 09-10-2011, 05:38 PM
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Wow, you guys need to read up on liquid intercoolers.
Old 09-10-2011, 09:05 PM
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Well, air can only reach the temperature of the water at the very best. And the water can only reach the temperature of the fluid it is immersed in (exluding the phase change options for now). Therefore whether you have an air/air or air/water/air intercooler you can never get below ambient air temperatures without using a refrigeration system or spraying water on it, allowing it to evaporate, or else packing it with ice and allowing it to melt.

What's there to read up on? It is simple thermodynamics that sets these limits.
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911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 09-10-2011, 09:13 PM
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So you just listed ways to achieve the goal while saying it can't be done. Thanks for your input
Old 09-10-2011, 09:30 PM
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Is it really worth all that extra weight in plumbing, water tank, pump, radiator for only minor gains?

Wouldnt it be more effective to just lighten the car where possible?

Just a thought.
Old 09-10-2011, 10:57 PM
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