Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
Digital WUR - Success stories?

I am upgrading my'91 964T with a bunch of bolt on goodies including a full exhaust, 1.0 bar boost and GT35R. Part of what I will need with the upgrades is more control over when the fuel arrives to keep the AFRs in check.

I like the idea of the Digital WUR but know it has had some bumps as it evolved (the big thread of 1000+ posts was a monumental and depressing read!) and was therefore leaning towards a Leask WUR with RPM solenoid.

That said, I still like the concept of the digital WUR, and to the credit of UTCIS they do seem to have remained committed to trying to improve it and get it to work in a reliable way.

So, before deciding not to use a Digital WUR on the strength of the historical problems, I thought I would ask if people are now finding success with the product since the stepper motor has been replaced by an injector and the software has had whatever upgrades it may have had.

If so, I'd like to hear about those successes.

Likewise, if there are still challenges with the product, what are they and how serious are they to achieving accurate control over AFRs in a reliable way?
Old 10-22-2011, 05:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Dr J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 665
They replaced the stepper with an injector? Is this a fact or a rumor?

I couldn't find that in their website. In the 1000+ post I put some 6 points or so that would improve this system. Others chimed in as well.
__________________
1979 SC, Slant nose wide-body cab conversion. AEM Infinity EFI. Whipple Supercharged!
Old 10-22-2011, 05:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
I was told there was a switch to an injector by my local mechanic who is keen to give it a try, but he has not installed one of the new ones yet so I guess you could say it's heresay.
Maybe I'll call UT on Monday and confirm for sure.
I guess the main problem that stood out in reading the 1000+ post was related to stepper motor failures.
What else did you have problems with? I could also ask them if these items have been addressed when I call them.

Last edited by TheTell; 10-22-2011 at 06:30 PM..
Old 10-22-2011, 06:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Glorious Pac NW
Posts: 2,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr J View Post
They replaced the stepper with an injector? Is this a fact or a rumor?
That's what Unwired told me in May.
__________________
'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 10-23-2011, 03:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Metal Guru
 
911nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,511
Garage
I've just finished tuning my 965. While I don't have the GT turbo, I have headers and a Leask wur and am running .9 bar boost. I've had to adjust both system pressure and control pressures to keep from running pig rich.
With the mods that you are planning you will have plenty of fuel if you decide to use the stock K-Jet system.
__________________
Paul B.
'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 10-23-2011, 03:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Dr J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 665
Here were my suggestions:

1) Instead of entering control pressure, it should use a wideband 02 sensor in a closed loop system. That way you enter AFRs instead of control pressures (which is ultimately what we are trying to control)

2) The control pressure should be measured at the DWUR and electrically sent to the "brain" (Mine has a thin fuel line that can be easily kinked)

3) Random loss of programmed values should be fixed.

4) Output a warning signal whenever AFR is say 0.5 points above the requested value.

5) Let the software import/export the maps as excel or csv or text files that way it is much easier to optimize your map

6) Let it auto-tune itself, given the AFRs of point #1

Of all of these, #3 is by far the most dangerous. I cannot determine why it happens and is the reason why I suggest point 4- you can always energize the cold start valve in an emergency lean condition. Point 6 would make life soooo much easier, but in the absence of that, at least give me point 5!
__________________
1979 SC, Slant nose wide-body cab conversion. AEM Infinity EFI. Whipple Supercharged!
Old 10-23-2011, 06:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 400
Dr.J,
theoretical I agree with all your points above.
In real its not easy to get a close to perfect result from the "autotune" function.
Especially when you use only AFR as parameter.
Driving conditions incl. load etc. are to complex for a simple AFR related autotune.

your point 4:
I am using Zeitronix wbo2 which has a warning function.
Unfortunately the warning trigger has no delay.
AFRs jump sometimes in the whole range for milliseconds.
The warning signal will appear even in perfect conditions
when you lift the throttle for a second.

Changing the UTCIS to mappable injector driver might be the better way.
But there are systems on the market which are much more developed
especially in programming and data logging.
My personal favorite is the MS2 for control pressure
+ you can map ignition and datalog all your parameters.
Autotune would be included to...just the MS style.

Falk
__________________
87 930 bblk/blk
88 3.6 white/blk
Old 10-24-2011, 04:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
I spoke to Frank at Unwired today and he confirmed that they have now switched to an injector instead of the stepper motor.

He also said that some problems with the build quality that caused the EPROM to lose its memory on a limited number of units have now been resolved.

He also reiterated the company's commitment to support users of the product, acknowledging that there have been bumps in the road that have caused some of the early supporters to lose some enthusiasm.

So that would be a couple of major concerns addressed:
Stepper motor failures - history
Unit losing its memory - history

Programming the unit is similar to the past I believe: vehicle on dyno, hold rpm in desired rpm band, check and adjust AFR until at desired level, let drop back to idle, set up the starting point for next rpm band (probably just copy the one you've just completed), bring car up to RPM band and so on through the range.
It sounds time consuming to have to let it drop back to idle and set up the next rpm band before tuning it, but hopefully you only have to do it once.

As mentioned in this thread, and well documented by others who have used AIC and Greddy injector controllers, I am sure that injector controllers could be used with good effect and I am also considering this route. However, it seems like a hassle to source out the various parts to put together a DIY injector controller set up versus buying a ready to install kit like the Digi WUR.


Has anyone installed and used one of the new injector based units? How is it performing?
Old 10-24-2011, 07:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falk930 View Post
Dr.J,
theoretical I agree with all your points above.
In real its not easy to get a close to perfect result from the "autotune" function.
Especially when you use only AFR as parameter.
Driving conditions incl. load etc. are to complex for a simple AFR related autotune.

your point 4:
I am using Zeitronix wbo2 which has a warning function.
Unfortunately the warning trigger has no delay.
AFRs jump sometimes in the whole range for milliseconds.
The warning signal will appear even in perfect conditions
when you lift the throttle for a second.

Changing the UTCIS to mappable injector driver might be the better way.
But there are systems on the market which are much more developed
especially in programming and data logging.
My personal favorite is the MS2 for control pressure
+ you can map ignition and datalog all your parameters.
Autotune would be included to...just the MS style.

Falk
Thanks Falk, are you suggesting that the Megasquirt could be used as a replacement for the UTCIS processor? I don't know if that would work if the UTCIS processor is still receiving it's CP input from the fuel line referred to by Dr J.
Old 10-24-2011, 07:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Tinkering Pays!!
 
mooney265's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,365
Garage
Question

Does anyone on the forum have this 'new' unit [with injector] installed? And, would like to share their experiences with it??? Thanks
__________________
LIVN80S - - Red '79 Porsche 930 Steel Slant Nose Conversion [in 1987] w. 46k miles 3.3L; 964 Cams; K27HF @ 1.0 BAR, with Garrettson Intercooler; Rarly Zork; CIS Flowtech Fuel Head & BL-WUR.
Old 10-25-2011, 05:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Blitzkrieg
 
jly535's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spokane
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTell View Post
Thanks Falk, are you suggesting that the Megasquirt could be used as a replacement for the UTCIS processor? I don't know if that would work if the UTCIS processor is still receiving it's CP input from the fuel line referred to by Dr J.
With megasquirt you wouldn't need a UTCIS.
__________________
77' 930
10' BMW F800GS
08' Tundra
Old 10-25-2011, 06:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jly535 View Post
With megasquirt you wouldn't need a UTCIS.
Oh, so EFI then. But I'm not going down that road. I plan to keep CIS, but want a better mousetrap, err, WUR. Wondering if the latest new and improved DigiWur may be it.
Old 10-25-2011, 12:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Dr J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 665
The change to an injector should make this DWUR an excellent option. The stepper cannot react as fast as the injector system can. If they fixed the erasing EPROM problem, then the system should be a very good alternative. I still would like to be able to download/upload the control pressures and not have to manually enter the values with the sliders.
__________________
1979 SC, Slant nose wide-body cab conversion. AEM Infinity EFI. Whipple Supercharged!
Old 10-25-2011, 01:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
DSPTurtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Suntree, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,229
I remember when I first read about the stepper motor. Sounded then like a perfect idea, and still today! Not sure why they could not get the motor to work? As far as saying the stepper is not fast... you just need to change the spec and go to a higher voltage motor. I wish someone would try that again as I think it could really be made to work. We did something similar to that with a cold gas system on big, big rockets. Granted, the motors were probably a tad bit more expensive, but still, it should work just fine. You don't have to react to the millisecond over/underruns. If you look at how Bosch is doing their control loop, they have less than 60 hertz on some of the fancy sensors, and about 2 hertz on some others. This ain't rocket science
__________________
JB - BreitWerks
www.breitwerks.com
321-806-8664
Engine Rebuild & Restorations
Old 10-25-2011, 04:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
Spoke to Steve at Unwired today.
Using an Injector is more reliable than the stepper motor, and, if something does go wrong, has better fail safe characteristics.
Here's the scoop:
If an injector fails it will fail either fully open or fully closed. They don't get stuck in between (unlike a stepper motor which could get stuck anywhere in its range)
If the injector fails at fully open position, it will give you such low CP that the engine will run extremely rich. So rich that it may or may not actually continue running, but whether it runs or not you'll know something is up and need to fix it quick smart. Although you'll have to fix the WUR, at least the overly rich condition will only have been an annoyance and you won't have a molten engine as as result.
On the other hand, if it fails at fully closed the engine will have extremely high CP and therefore no fuel almost instantly and the engine will simply coast to a stop.
So in case of failure, the engine basically stops running and there's no lasting damage to it.
You curse away, just like you would if your factory WUR failed, then fix it and drive away smiling on an undamaged engine.
Steve also said they had made a change to the software and hardware to improve the quality of the RPM pickup, which makes it easier to tune.
Overall, I feel like the product has evolved pretty well. Before the research of the past couple of days, I was heading in a different direction for a WUR solution, but now and I'm at a point where I think I am going to give the DigiWUR a go.
Let you know how it turns out!,

Last edited by TheTell; 10-26-2011 at 08:37 PM..
Old 10-26-2011, 08:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Infidel
 
JBL930's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,172
You started this thread four days ago, and this is probably the most active 930 forum there is, and not one positive story about the DWUR....... I'd avoid it mate, stick to the tried and tested Leask adjustable WUR, send yours to him with a list of your mods, order the RPM solenoid too, set it up and be happy in the knowledge that it will work. Job done!

UT have had WAY more time than they should need to produce something that works, sorry, but that's the way i see it! Walk away
__________________
Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 10-27-2011, 12:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Tinkering Pays!!
 
mooney265's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,365
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTell View Post
Let you know how it turns out!,
Please do...
__________________
LIVN80S - - Red '79 Porsche 930 Steel Slant Nose Conversion [in 1987] w. 46k miles 3.3L; 964 Cams; K27HF @ 1.0 BAR, with Garrettson Intercooler; Rarly Zork; CIS Flowtech Fuel Head & BL-WUR.
Old 10-27-2011, 05:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Metal Guru
 
911nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,511
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
stick to the tried and tested Leask adjustable WUR
Two years ago I had to decide between buying the digital wur or modifying my stock unit.
Looking back on all that's transpired with the Unwired unit, I'm glad I went with the Leask alternative.
Spending time tuning my mixture this past summer certainly increased my understanding and appreciation of CIS. Granted, when there's an problen we're all cursing it but when it's right, it does a good job (not to mention it's cost effective too).
I'd love to have the capability of using a laptop and usb cable to change control pressure but I think dwur needs another year of development before I would consider it.
__________________
Paul B.
'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 10-27-2011, 01:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 45
Garage
FWIW, I've finally completed a 2 year evaluation of the UTCIS digital WUR.
The bottom line is that I replaced the UTCIS with the stock Bosch WUR.
Why? Tons of reasons resulted in unsatisfactory performance on my '79 911 SC 3.0 NA. I'll try to elaborate.
1) Poor build quality. On my unit, there is an active component soldered in line on the wiring! Just hanging out there in space. IMO, unacceptable.
2) Start temp sensor. As was explained to me, the UTCIS grabs temp once, presumably at or near power on. But if you watch the real time digital data, you notice that the sensor report temp +/- 10C, a HUGE variance. Somehow, the unit doesn't seem to grab temp correctly. Since the temp sensed drives how long the warm-up cycle lasts, this is a critical problem. I returned the unit and the only noteworthy change was that they put a shrink tube over the exposed component. Sensed temp is all over the map.
3) As best I can figure the algorithm out, the unit senses the start temp, then holds the mapped control pressure for a specified period of time regardless of throttle setting. Assuming the start temp is correct (and it isn't), the problem with this algorithm is that it ignores vacuum input so any change in throttle setting appears to be ignored. In contrast, the Bosch WUR still responds to throttle settings, allowing one to drive the vehicle before the warmup cycle is complete.
4) I like the idea of being able to tune fuel control pressure according to throttle setting. But in practice it doesn't seem to quite work. It's like the stepper motor is slow to respond.
5) IMO, one of the problems in the UTCIS implementation is a lack of a systems perspective. Ideally, a digital control would control not only the WUR function but the auxiliary air regulator, matching their performance.

All that said, I learned quite a bit playing with the WUR. But, in the end, I abandoned it. It just wasn't getting the job done.
I'd also point out that Wayne at Pelican no longer sells this item. I think I now understand why.

The stock WUR is less than perfect. It has a rough idle on start-up but is throttle responsive. After maybe a minute, it smooths out. The UTCIS could never achieve this level of drivability.

If anyone wants to experiment, I can make you a good deal on a used UTCIS unit.
LarryHughes at cfl.rr.com
__________________
'09 Cayman
'01 996 Carrera, RIP
'79 911SC Targa sold to a collector in Germany!
'87 944S sold! '86 944 sold!
'74 914 2.0 sold but not forgotten - my favorite

Last edited by LarryHughes; 02-03-2012 at 03:46 PM..
Old 02-03-2012, 03:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Bob930slant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Abbotsford, Canada
Posts: 36
Garage
Hi Larry,

What Version of UTCIS were you using?

For me the warm up is not an issue I drive in the summer only and by the time I get it out of the garage and the doors closed up it is a couple minutes so it is on the run segment and runs fine.

Has anyone tried or tested the latest Injector Version?
__________________
81 930 Turbo RoW, Slantnose, 3.5 twin plug dual MSD 6AL ignition, MSD RPM Activated boost rdelay switch set at 4400, MSD Tach Adapter, BL Wur, 18x11 (315-30-18) and 18x8 (235-35-18), Fab speed exhaust, Innovate MTX, K&N Filter Mod., NGK BPR7EIX and DPR7EIX plugs, KEP Stage II PP with Street/Race Organic Disk., Weltmiester Swaybars, Adjustable AAR Mod, AAV Delete
Old 02-03-2012, 05:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:30 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.