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Alan L's Avatar
 
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fuel mixture/exhaust colour

Wondering if anyone has any suggestions. Just removed the headers and you can see 1-3 are quite sooty while 4-6 much cleaner burn with #4 slightly darker.
Thought my fuel mix may be off so checked injector calibrations;
#1 = 54ml
#2 = 55
#3 = 54
#4 = 56
#5 = 56
#6 = 56
These were taken at near WOT - which is where the engine is doing most of its work and burning most fuel.
I then wondered if these clours were due to the idle up time - eg unloading from trailer etc on cold start. So did another run at near idle opening;
#1 = 31
#2 = 29
#3 = 25
#4 = 28
#5 = 26
#6 = 30
So there seems to be no fuel pattern that would explain this (dont compare volumes between run 1 &2 - just ran enough fuel on 2nd run to be able to accurately measure.)
Since I use this machine on track only, any lack of efficiency is of interest. Wonder about an air leak on one side (1-3) on boost - would that explain it?
Thanks
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-15-2011, 12:38 PM
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Just checked 1-3 for boost leaks - soapy water and 10psi. Nothing.
Just pulled plugs 3 & 4 wondering if I would see a clue there. Both look similar - dark tan colour on center electrode and black around outer body.
Just concerned what is happening here, and whether it is stuffing up my AFRs. The engine hasn't melted yet, and had it apart about 3 mths ago for new rings etc. No signs of issues then either.
Any ideas appreciated.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-15-2011, 03:17 PM
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Hey Alan , you could always adjust your fuel flow to each of the cyl's , On the fuel head next to the fuel line there is a alen head cap , remove that and in there is a 3mm alen adjuster, turn clock wise for more fuel ccw for less , just a hair will give alot of fuel
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:38 PM
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Well the way to tune the fuel flow is to get them all balanced and even - which is what I have done previously as per the fuel flow figures I posted. I have no reference point to go adjusting the flows individually, other than the measured flow. I don't think leaning 1-3 off because of the colour would be wise. The fuel flows say they are getting the same quantity of fuel as 4-6. The question really is, why the greatly different exhaust colours. 1-3 are quite sooty. I am baffled.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-15-2011, 06:12 PM
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Alan, how did you measure the fuel flow on boost and at idle?

Typically I see cylinder 2 and 5 are white with the rest being dark. It is assumed this is caused by the air flow in 2&5 being less restricted therefore more lean mixture. You have one bank running more lean than the other bank. Is there anything unique about your induction system that could restrict air flow on the driver's side bank?
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:56 PM
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Could it be a valve timing difference or maybe one bank of headers not sealed as well as the other? Just thinking out aloud..
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Old 11-15-2011, 08:53 PM
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Brian, I can't measure fuel flow on boost. But on boost I am at WOT. To get the first fuel flows, I simply depressed airplate to near full extension. At idle I just cracked it open til fuel flowed. Your comment is interesting. I last had the headers off when I re- ringed the engine about 3 mths ago. 2 & 5 were looking the leanest - but the WOT fuel mix I recorded this time was almost identical to this one. I made a small tweek back then to get them even, and that is how I now record them. I have generally put 2&5 down to running hotter being mid cylinders, but you are probably right.
But I am truely baffled by this result. There are defintely no air leaks in 1-3. I think I need to have a look after taking it straight off the track with no cold running/idle. But even the idle fuels don't/can't explain it. What I'm trying to figure is whether this is in any way indicative of my track conditions.
One other thought was the over-run. I have 3 ft flames out the zork when off WOT and on to brakes. I can understand this (CIS - full fuel mix in intake), but why only one side?.
Waiting for your headers - which is why I have these off.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-15-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmsy View Post
Could it be a valve timing difference or maybe one bank of headers not sealed as well as the other? Just thinking out aloud..
Possibly valve timing - I wonder if it could do this?
I did spent some time trying to get these even - within a spigot hole But hard to allow for chain tension evenly I think. I wonder if a slight valve timing on over-run could do it?Was aiming for 0.8mm. I'm sure they are no more than 0.1 variance.
Not sure the header sealing would affect it - but would affect boost. Boost was not an issue.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-15-2011, 10:26 PM
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Actually cylinders 3&6 run the hottest due to the design of the fan shroud.
You'd hear a leak big time and see the carbon track so that is probably not the issue.
We need some racers to chime in as they have specific knowledge.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:46 AM
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Take a digital infrared themometer with lazer dot aiming pointer and take a temp reading of the header primary tubes just below the heads at idle and you'll find #2 and #5 run alot hotter than the rest. Like close to 100 degrees hotter sometimes.
They go on sale at harbor freight tools for $25 with a coupon sometimes and work really well.

At idle I don't think there's enough air movement through the intake manifold to make any difference in air flow to the different cylinders so it seems to me 2 and 5 run hotter because they are air cooled and in the middle of each bank with hot cylinders and heads on each side and joined together on the top surface by the cam tower that is mostly oil cooled from the inside.. a good reason to never install oil restrictors in the cam tower oil line fittings.
At higher rpms it's possible 2 and 5 do get more intake air through the intake manifold and run a little leaner than the others.

Have you removed the spark plugs after driving and seen a difference in the color or possible oil deposits? Thats better than trying to judge AFR mixtures from the insides of the header primary tubes.

Try a compression and leakdown test to see if compression is relatively even and you could move the injectors around to different cylinders.

Check individual spark plug wire resistances with an ohm meter and check to see if ignition timing from the distributor is stable while running with a timing light on different spark plug wires.

edit: What headers are those? They look like GHL with the heat exchangers removed. The collector design looks really poor and it appears the port sealing rings that go up into the exhaust ports are missing on one and two but maybe thats just black carbon soot making them hard to see.

Last edited by JFairman; 11-16-2011 at 06:14 AM..
Old 11-16-2011, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Take a digital infrared themometer with lazer dot aiming pointer and take a temp reading of the header primary tubes just below the heads at idle and you'll find #2 and #5 run alot hotter than the rest. Like close to 100 degrees hotter sometimes.
The data I have seen shows each set of cylinders run hotter as you go from front to back, 1/4, 2/5, 3/6 with the back 4 being closer in temp and the front 2 being the most cool. This is dyno data so no stop/go/idle as a street car would do. The purpose was to design a splitter for the shroud.

If you did not have data showing the volume/flow of each cylinder to not be significantly different I'd say the problem lies in the fuel head. Jim has a great idea to put a pyrometer on each bank and see what it says.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-16-2011, 08:36 AM
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'Have you removed the spark plugs after driving and seen a difference in the color or possible oil deposits? Thats better than trying to judge AFR mixtures from the insides of the header primary tubes.'

Jim, I had a look at #3 and #4 now - the easy ones. They dont quite show the same as the respective headers tubes. The centre electrode in both cases is dark tan. The outer electrode body in both cases are black. But you are right - I should check after straight off the track. It is just that I have just seen this weird stuff for the first time since bringing it home from track. I did leakdowns/compressions about 3 mths ago - before I re ringed it and they are good. I thought I may have had damaged rings at one point, so pulled it down.
Correct - GHL and I cut the heat boxes off - this was before I ordered a set of Brian's tuned headers - which are in the post? I should have left the heat boxes on for re sale - but I didn't know 3 mths ago Brian was going to sell me a set of his headers.
I dont know anything about port sealing rings - I just have the usual gaskets on the heads - am I missing something here?
Brian, if it was the fuel head, what would you have in mind. I had a lot of trouble with the head, but am still a little suspicious about it and the PO. For instance on boost I cannot get rid of excess fuel - I would like my AFRs a bit higher - in the low 12s, but can't get there. I have had to put my old OEM WUR back on for the moment while UT tweek my DWUR. I have had to blank off the boost port on the WUR - it is the only way I can moderate the fuel at WOT to sensible AFRs - 11.8-12. So, I do wonder about what may have been done to the fuel head previously.
I had it apart, and to the eye, cannot see any modified slits. If it had Y slits, it would make more sense - mine dumps enough fuel without a 0.5 bar CP drop, at boost and WOT , but below boost it is too lean - which makes it a pig to drive on track halfway around a corner. But that is another story.
I have a mate with an IR pyrometer - uses for tyre temps. Can borrow - but probably only measuring idle temps?
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-16-2011, 11:14 AM
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Geesh no wonder they put heater boxes on those headers, it hides that nasty collector design. You should not need a modifed or turned up fuel head with your mods. If it has been turned up have someone put it back to stock. This may be why the UTWUR does not work properly, it is out of range.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 11-16-2011, 01:42 PM
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The DWUR has another issue. I don't know if my fuel head is modded - but the car came (ex Japan) with a bit of a strange fuel system and a host of fuel issues. Took a lot of time on the Pelican forum for a 930 newbie to sort them out. As far as I can see, the head is stock, but I have long been puzzled why it runs on boost best when I cut the fuel dump off completely. If the Imagine Y slit mod is visibly different, then I am sure mine is stock. I have inspected it closely. I have considered buying another head for it to settle the matter. But I also invested a heap of hours making a new fuel piston for it too - which cured most of the issues.
I think I made the right choice switching to your headers by the sounds of yours and Jims comments. I wouldn't know a good collector from a crappy one. I am presuming you are referring to the 3:1 junction. I dumped the heat boxes because any weight that is not contributing to speed is excess baggage. Chopped them off when I had the engine out last.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-16-2011, 02:48 PM
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You made your own piston? And it worked? That's impressive!
I've got a rebuilt Euro distributor but you're right it's an expensive experiment.
I'm going to go way out on a limb and ask if it is possible that the timing chain is stretched and your right bank timing is a smidge different than the left side?

Here is what the collector on your headers looks like:



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Old 11-16-2011, 06:33 PM
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Wow, nice work. My fuel piston works fine. The old one had a chip on the metering edge - which drove me nuts trying to tune the injectors - depended where the chip was - which slit it was/was not over as to what fuel you got. Spent HOURS tracking that down. It was also scored along the length as well which never helped.
If I did get another head I would probably go for the Aluminium one at this time. But I can't think what would be wrong with it. The fuel flows are excellent and stable/repeatable. I will do as Jim suggests and pull some hot plugs after next track run. Ouch. (#s 1&2).
How far out do you think the cam timing would have to be? I do recall not being quite happy with it after bolting the engine back together and pulling one cam to retime it by one hole. I'm reasonably sure they are good. But it is worth a look. I have a lot of gear off the engine at the moment - so I can get to inlet valves reasonably well. (Of course it does not have to be 1 or 4. Any Inlet valve will do). Worth checking.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-16-2011, 07:00 PM
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Well, I don't think it is valve timing. I got 0.85mm on that side - fractionally beyond spec of 0.80. I doubt 0.05mm would do it - your valve clearance tolerances probably put it beyond that sort of variance on a regular basis I would guess.
It was certainly worth a crack with one side looking suspect.
I can but check the plugs next WOT run. Which won't be for a little while.
Weird.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-17-2011, 06:11 PM
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FWIW mine also enriches under boost even if the WUR boost port is blocked off (7k rpm module). I had a thread on this here previously but never really worked out why.

Why does it still enrich?

I just presumed it was the fuel head and or pressures and left the rpm solenoid at 7k and I still see AFRs in the 10s on boost.

I have since replaced my injectors, BL rebuilt my WUR (leaky diaphram) and tuned her up to run really nice. Still enriches under boost with no boost to the WUR line!!!
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Last edited by Helmsy; 11-17-2011 at 07:37 PM..
Old 11-17-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
mine also enriches under boost even if the WUR boost port is blocked off
This could be a broken spring in your WUR. Not the bimetalic strip but the main spring. If that spring is weak or broken then it will drop pressure in the absense of vacuum. That means any time you tap the gas under load it will dump like it is seeing 300mbar boost. Fuel mileage would be horrific under this condition.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:34 PM
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I don't know about Ben's spring, but mine is definitely OK. I even had a batch of stronger ones made up. I have not only blocked off the port, but physically restricted the diaphragm from moving on boost dump (fitted an adjustable screw in the base of the WUR below the boost diaphragm). I do get a better result than Ben - high 11s, low 12s.
But it is strange to still be dumping fuel under these conditions.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-17-2011, 10:13 PM
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