Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
044+ MSD fuel pump voltage booster(=more fuel on top?)

Has any body tried using a MSD fuel pump voltage booster ?
pros and cons ?

It maintains fuel volume in relation to boost pressure by stepping up the supply voltage to the electric fuel pump.


The voltage boost is streetable, since it only pumps up the voltage under boost. On a side note the voltage booster only works on return line style fuel systems. It will not work on pulse modulated fuel systems.

posted by JFairman

The Bosch flow rates are conservative.
Bosch tests some 044 pumps and the ones that flow the higher rating are renamed 413 and given a higher price.

Link to Bosch PDF on the 044 and 413 pumps: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/components/fuel_pumps/FP-200.pdf

Here's a copy of someones post on a corvette forum almost 5 years ago...

" Bosch Fuel Pump Information for High HP Applications"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I did a little research on the Bosch pumps that are being used and this is what I found out from Bosch Motorsports and one of their US distributors.

Let me first preface this by saying that pumps flow different amounts under different conditions. Typically less voltage to the pump, higher pressure, and higher temperature means less flow out of the pump. The flow numbers and max HP approximations I am reporting are the numbers Bosch supplied for the various models and I do not have information for other pressures or voltages yet. The distributor did say that the flow and HP numbers are a little conservative.

Pump #1: Bosch 0 580 254 979 ( 930 rear Pump)

This is the pump I hear referred to as the 310 LPH pump frequently.

Bosch Rating: 165 LPH at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Rating: 230 LPH at 43.5 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V: 600 HP


Pump #2: Bosch 0 580 254 044

This is the pump I hear referred to as the 420 LPH pump frequently.

Bosch Rating: 200 LPH at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V: 750 HP


Pump #3: Bosch B 261 205 413

This pump is the same pump as pump #2, but this pump is flow tested and rated at 116 PSI instead of 72.5 PSI. What Bosch does is flow some of the pumps and sort them out. This pump they will guarantee to flow its rated capacity at 116 PSI instead of 72.5 PSI. Since lower peressure generally means more flow, all else equal, I think this pump will outflow pump #2 at typical working rail pressures (60 - 80 PSI) or at least maintain a high flow rate if rail pressures above 72.5 PSI are required in high boost / high HP applications.

Bosch Rating: 200 LPH at 116 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 116 PSI and 13.5 V: 750 HP

A side note on pump #3 is that it is only available from a Bosch Motorsports dealer, which is different than a regular shop that sells Bosch products.

Obviously at lower pressures the pumps will flow more volume. Also, with the addition of a voltage booster, the pumps will flow more volume. Therefore, it is apparant that the pumps can support more power than the Bosch Motorsports representative indicated given more favorable conditions (less pressure and more voltage)."

The question to you will the MSD fuel pump booster helps us 930 CIS turbo guys that are getting too lean at high rpm's ?

Maybe Chris from TurboKraft can weigh in.
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo

Last edited by heliolps2; 11-22-2011 at 06:15 PM..
Old 11-22-2011, 05:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,760
Interesting concept. I didn't know MSD made such a thing. I wonder how well that would work with CIS injection components in concert with the system fuel pressure reguator within the fuel head and how it may mess with control pressures as defined by the WUR...control pressures being the big factor on how a 930's mixture is controlled. And I wonder how running the pumps at warp-speed will affect their lifespan? And...and...I wonder if there may be an unacceptable delay before that extra fuel volume reaches the engine when at full chat?

Just wondering and postulating at this point. Let's see who else chimes in.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 11-22-2011, 06:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,460
Garage
What result are you looking for exactly?
The -044 pump alone will support 700HP so there is no need to add anything. The difficulty is using the capacity of a system designed for <300WHP to pruduce a good AFR curve from idle to redline while supporting 400+WHP. You should be able to do this with your fuel head adjustments, WUR adjustments and RPM module. Wide open the fuel head will flow enough for 500WHP.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-22-2011, 07:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
The MSD is adjustable from 1.5 additional volts to 22 additional volts and only comes on when we it sees boost, I don't every one else but I don't always drive on boost , I don't know, does the relay regulate the power to the fuel pump at 12 volts ?

or does the fuel pump see the voltage the battery sees when the car is running , which should be about 14 volts.

Bosch specs says 13.5 volts to flow to spec. can any one chime in on this?
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo
Old 11-22-2011, 07:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
Hey Brain , I like the way my cars afr's from cruse to onset boost , I just want more fuel on top , I think by adjusting the fuel head which tested at 320 mil per min WOT. or mess with the WUR would mess up my driveabiliaty , I'm also thinking about adding a second 044 pump, right I have only one pump,
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo
Old 11-22-2011, 07:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
I put my car on the dyno last weekend .and was really lean on top then getting home and finding out I have a bad alternator, with the car running ,with nothing on, is 11.92 volts. my new one wont be here until the 30th, now has me thinking that the voltage to the fuel pump is very important , and did it mess with my afr's, and what other effects does the voltage boosting have and can we benefit from this technology.
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo

Last edited by heliolps2; 11-22-2011 at 07:38 PM..
Old 11-22-2011, 07:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,248
You might want to try cleaning the fine screen fuel filter in the gas tank.
It's on the other side of that brass plug on the bottom of the tank. It's a blast to remove and you never know till you look.

Thats a front 044 I put in a few months ago. Stock one is still in the back and with with the modified fuel head and adjustable WUR there's plenty of fuel up top.
Euro injectors and lines would probably give even more.
Old 11-22-2011, 07:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
hey JFairmann, the tank fuel screen is spotless , I also have 044 pump and good flowing fuel head, no rear pump, and a stock euro 112 WUR, what do you think about the MSD unit?
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo
Old 11-22-2011, 07:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: FRANCE (Besanšon)
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by heliolps2 View Post
Hey Brain , I like the way my cars afr's from cruse to onset boost , I just want more fuel on top , I think by adjusting the fuel head which tested at 320 mil per min WOT. or mess with the WUR would mess up my driveabiliaty , I'm also thinking about adding a second 044 pump, right I have only one pump,

What ? only one single pump in front and nothing at rear ?

So just (re)-install the stock rear fuel pump and you will get the fuel you need and more stable system fuel pressure along the RPM .
__________________
965 C2T / 1991 3.3 TURBO
Old 11-23-2011, 12:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,669
to maintain the correct system pressure you need both pumps. I had to raise my system pressure to 7.4 bar to keep mine from going lean. I put an 044 pump in the front, it's also a 3.4 with 7.5 to 1 comp and a 1 bar waste gate.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 11-23-2011, 04:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,669
Just read the publication if you run e-85 it only has a 500 hour service life?
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 11-23-2011, 04:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,760
What kind of 930 are you driving with only one fuel pump? Or is it not a 930? I don't see how you can have achieved the dyno run numbers you've posted earlier with just a single pump.

To your question on voltages: The pump(s) see the same voltage that the battery sees as delivered by the alternator and controlled by the regulator within it.
__________________
Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 11-23-2011, 04:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
Yes one pump , I need to scan the dyno print out for you all can see,as I have said the hp and tq #"s are probably scued because of the low voltage going to the pump, why do say a stock one in the rear ? why not an 044 pump ?
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo
Old 11-23-2011, 05:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
here's the 1st dyno #s with the low voltage single pump, the second pull the printer stoped working , I adjusted my mixture a little from 14.5 to 13.9 at idle , the afr's changed a little to 13.3 an hp went to 369 and 422 TQ, but still really lean , I did not know at the time that I had a bad alternator, this is rear wheel hp, so add I guees 15% for fly wheel HP and TQ right ?
__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo

Last edited by heliolps2; 11-23-2011 at 05:55 AM..
Old 11-23-2011, 05:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by heliolps2 View Post
hey JFairmann, the tank fuel screen is spotless , I also have 044 pump and good flowing fuel head, no rear pump, and a stock euro 112 WUR, what do you think about the MSD unit?
I never heard of the MSD unit before so I don't know what to think about it other than it seems like a bad idea to give higher voltage to a fuel pump than it was designed for if you want it to last long and be reliable.

Put a rear fuel pump in, an 044 or a good origonal 930 one and you'll get more fuel up top. A new 044 flows more and would probably be the better choice.

A modified aluminum lambda fuel head with it's more flexible synthetic diaphram and it's individual steel fuel metering discs in between the upper and lower chambers can flow more fuel up top than the early cast iron fuel head with stiff stainless steel diaphram you have now, and a Brian Leask adjustable control pressure regulator with the boost control pressure set lower than stock or some other device like the andial bosch frequency valve with a modern aftermarket controler in the control pressure line to lower control pressure during boost will also help alot.
Old 11-23-2011, 07:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,669
An 044 pump in the rear would be good doesnt have to be the stock one. Actually you can purchase an 044 pump for less money any way. There is an issue of the fittings on the rear pump not fitting the 044 fittings but since you have it replumbed any way it shouldnt be a problem.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue
Old 11-23-2011, 07:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: FRANCE (Besanšon)
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by heliolps2 View Post
Yes one pump , I need to scan the dyno print out for you all can see,as I have said the hp and tq #"s are probably scued because of the low voltage going to the pump, why do say a stock one in the rear ? why not an 044 pump ?
Sorry I presumed you've got the rear stock one somewhere on your shelve.

Of course, as you don't have it in your hand you can install a new 044 for rear side. You will even get some extra fuel margin !
__________________
965 C2T / 1991 3.3 TURBO
Old 11-23-2011, 07:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Brando
 
quattrorunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Las vegas
Posts: 5,755
Garage
heliolps2,
What is your car? Is it a 911 swaped in 930 engine? I ask because I am doing that too except mine is low boost(.6bar) and early 3.0 turbo engine. My car is a 77 911s and so I also have one pump and the 911s fuel lines aft of the pump(044 pump). I put a 77 930 fuel filter on so it would fit the 930 fuel lines but Chris at turbokraft was a little concerned about my system not being complete swap from 930. He told me I needed the rear pump, 930 accumulator, and 930 fuel filter as these work at the correct system pressures required by the 930 fuel head and demand.Just a thought.
__________________
Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 11-23-2011, 09:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ken911's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loxahatchee, florida
Posts: 2,669
yeah i had to shim the system pressure valve to bring it up to 7.4 bar. remember if you do that you will also have to re adjust all the other settings again, warm and cold control pressure and full enrichment pressure. And be carefull with the WUR too many adjustments on the bottom for enrichment pressure and it will loosen up and can pop loose on you. Any resutling dings and dents in it when you have to send it back to brian leask will result in one of those why cant you take care of my regulator conversations.
__________________
88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
05 Cayenne S lapis blue

Last edited by Ken911; 11-23-2011 at 12:27 PM..
Old 11-23-2011, 12:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: DC
Posts: 1,175
Garage
thank you guys for the input , I have been talking to Chris at TurboKraft , what we came up with is.

(1) replace the alternator
( ordered a Bosch reman)

(2) check for proper voltage at fuel pump .
(3) replace the stock relay with a 40 amp relay and wiring ( for correct fuel delivery)

(4) lower the full throttle enrichment CP on the WUR(mine is still at the stock settings)
(I have my eruo 112 WUR and a spare at CIS Flow Tech for CP adjustment)

(5) Install a TurboKraft rear 044 pump kit
(6) depending above factors, shim the System pressure reg
(7) change my CO from 14.5 to 13.4 or less

this way at least the car will have safe afr's at high rpm's and on boost, and maybe some more HP and TQ. do you think I will gain some more power doing all this?

here's another pic of her.





__________________
1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo

Last edited by heliolps2; 11-23-2011 at 12:43 PM..
Old 11-23-2011, 12:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:23 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.