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Well since Brown is ground it appears someone is 1: after ground having lost it or 2: applying ground to something.
Since you went dead, My first guess is they are after ground. After disconnecting the temporary wires I would pull the supply plug to the CDI and check the ground plug to chassis. If you are good to ground my next guess is they were apply ground to something.
With all the claptrap CIS fuel stuff on that side panel it takes some patience to get to the multi ground lug under it all. Someone may not have been so patient to move it aside to get to the ground lug. Looks to me like the mystery will solved soon now.
Old 03-29-2017, 09:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #661 (permalink)
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The brown colored wire through me off as well. According to the repair manual lug 86 is 12V power not ground. I sure don't want to Hotwire a ground! So I e done nothing until I can figure out how this relay is supposed to be wired.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 03-29-2017, 02:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #662 (permalink)
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Brian, your 930 slant is an '85, right? Mine (an '85 as well) is up on my lift with the engine out. Maybe I can trace the brown wire in question for you. I suspect one end of the brown goes to the female connector block on the rear relay panel. Can you verify that?
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 03-29-2017, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
The brown colored wire through me off as well. According to the repair manual lug 86 is 12V power not ground. I sure don't want to Hotwire a ground! So I e done nothing until I can figure out how this relay is supposed to be wired.
Use your multimeter or test lamp to check if hot (12v). I doubt it.
Old 03-29-2017, 05:37 PM
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Yes time to get out the electrical troubleshooting equipment, the stuff I loath most about old cars, and the trade I most suck at.
The brown wire is a shade tree mechanic add-on, it isn't supposed to be there. The color may not mean anything other than that is what was handy at the time.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 03-29-2017, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Yes time to get out the electrical troubleshooting equipment, the stuff I loath most about old cars, and the trade I most suck at.
The brown wire is a shade tree mechanic add-on, it isn't supposed to be there. The color may not mean anything other than that is what was handy at the time.
Don't let it intimidate you. The brown wire has a factory appearance. The green with crimped connectors is obviously NOT. If the wiring diagram is not color coded it is easy to mistake a wire back to ground as a power delivery wire when it is not. Go to Hobby Lobby and get a large set of color markers and mark up just the wires you are interested in. May help reduce your stress.
Work the basics, you say you have fuel (hear pumps) so it is ignition. Not to much to this old system once you highlight what powers it.
Hey guys- How does he have pumps if not cranking? Isn't there a switch on your level of CIS to detect mass flow before pumps can run?
Wish I was closer to help you out.

Last edited by copbait73; 03-29-2017 at 06:43 PM..
Old 03-29-2017, 06:15 PM
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Something very goofy is going on at the rear electrical panel.
> With the delay relay removed and the airflow sensor charging pressure relay removed THE PUMPS RUN WHEN THE KEY IS ON
> When I jump pin 30 and pin L on the Delay Relay THE CDI BOX ENERGIZES AND WILL NOT SHUT OFF
> The distal end of the brown wire went into the Delay Relay connector but I do not know which pin it was shoved into as it came loose when I pulled the delay relay.
> When I check power KEY OFF to the Delay Relay pin L is HOT
> When I check power KEY OFF and KEY ON at the Airflow Relay ALL PINS ARE DEAD
> I went ahead and made a nice jump cable from Airflow Relay Pin 86 to chassis ground. The manual sais pin 86 is 12V power, but this entire plug is dead so I'm pissin' in the wind on that.
I'm going to put the intercooler back on and see if the engine fires. If it does we need to fix this mess or wire around all of it.
Thanks for the help!!


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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 04-01-2017, 10:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #667 (permalink)
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Hi Brian, I don't know what all is going on there but I removed the delay relay in mine because I hated the stumbling run on it creates as some of the left over fuel is burned off and John Walker on the 911 technical forum said to jumper the two female spade terminal pins in the delay relay plug that are closest to the motor to have things work normally.
I did that years ago and it worked.
Don't know if that will help what you're doing but it's good info anyway.
Old 04-01-2017, 11:24 AM
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The pins I jumped were 30 and L which are on the side facing you when standing at the bumper.
That jump made the CDI run all the time. I pulled that info from a schematic someone posted here a few years ago.

You're gonna love this.
Put the intercooler back on to fire the engine.
> Delay Relay bypassed, Air sensor relay in place with brown wire deleted => FIRED ON FIRST HIT
> Delay Relay put back in place => FIRED ON FIRST HIT
> Delay Relay in place, Air Sensor Relay REMOVE => FIRED ON FIRST HIT

The engine fires and runs with the air sensor relay REMOVED.

This tells me that relay has always been dead.
This tells me the problem I had that started this whole mess had NOTHING to do with that brown wire to nowhere.

All I changed was the green wire.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 04-01-2017, 11:55 AM
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You're jumping or connecting together the wrong pins in that plug.

To make things work normally with no annoying run on after turning off the ignition jump or connect the two pins that are on the right or closest to the motor when the plug is in the same position it was in when it was plugged into the bottom of the ignition delay relay. I don't know what numbers are next to those pins.

This is what John Walker told me to do and it works. As usual he was right.
Old 04-01-2017, 01:22 PM
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I'm sure you are right about that which is why the CDI would not shut off one they were jumped.
The pins are:
L 30
31 8
According to the manual L, 30, and 8 have power, 31 is ground.
L is the main 12V feed and goes to pin TD on the 6 pin CDI box.
30 disappears into the engine harness (pin 14), 8 disappears off the page so I don't know where it goes.
So what you have does is connect pins 30 and 8. That is 12V coming from somewhere then going to the engine harness. The next time I have that delay relay removed I'll copy the schematic on the side.
Still scratching my head about that air sensor relay ...
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 04-01-2017, 02:27 PM
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OK we're back on the road. Let the car idle for some time while I played with various things then grabbed the tool box and went for a drive. Sweet to have 'er back!

I've been working on the final touches to a project I started 10 years ago, yes 10 years. I've been picking away at it a little at a time. It's an active exhaust with a safe fail mode. Very challenging to come up with an elegant design that fits the available space, is quiet, durable, and sounds absolutely incredible when you get on the pipe. We hope to film this bad boy tomorrow and begin production. You fellas that have been following the Gray Ghost saga heard it here first.

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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 04-01-2017, 05:14 PM
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Brian looking forward to hearing about it and hearing it.
Old 04-01-2017, 07:07 PM
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I was in the middle of Beta testing the active exhaust when the ignition went on the fritz. Really stoked to get back to it and actually see the final product! I started this project 10 years ago and have been tinkering with it bit by bit all this time. The legal crap (patent applications) also take too much time. You would think an active exhaust for a 930 would be a simple thing, but once you get into it you see all these issues that must be overcome. You can't just slap a Y-tube on the turbo with a valve and a pipe on one side and a muffler on the other (yes I tried that first). The problem is (a) it's ugly as hell (b) the valve will burn up in short order close to the turbo and (c) the quiet side becomes too restrictive or loud due to packaging constraints. I wanted a muffler that looked like a conventional muffler. That meant some really tricky internals.
Another issue is failure mode. With 2 smaller pipes instead of one 3" pipe (like our Street/Hooligan/Outlaw Series) you will have some restriction on the muffled side. If the valve fails and all you have is the muffled side bad things can happen; the engine won't boost and the engine gets hot. I saw this first hand while going through a dozen different valves testing them to failure. The solution was finding a VERY durable stainless valve and having that valve be open as a default. The engine barks when you fire it up as the valve slams shut. Cool side effect!
The sounds this muffler makes and doesn't make are just beautiful. It is so quiet at idle and disappears like a new car at cruise. But when you boost it HOLY $HIT! It just SCREAMS! It's the best sound I have ever had in any car I have owned (I know, maybe you should own more types of cars). My 930 does have my tuned headers which add to it but with the Euro J-pipe it still sounded really good.
But that's not all.
You can modulate the valve. You learn quickly how to drive the car so that the valve stays shut all the time, or you can lug the engine and open the valve (self inflicted boost lag anyone?) so the turbo whistle can be heard loud and clear! Awesome!
I'm going to have my daughter film the car tomorrow afternoon and with luck we can post it.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 04-01-2017, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I was in the middle of Beta testing the active exhaust when the ignition went on the fritz. Really stoked to get back to it and actually see the final product! I started this project 10 years ago and have been tinkering with it bit by bit all this time. The legal crap (patent applications) also take too much time. You would think an active exhaust for a 930 would be a simple thing, but once you get into it you see all these issues that must be overcome. You can't just slap a Y-tube on the turbo with a valve and a pipe on one side and a muffler on the other (yes I tried that first). The problem is (a) it's ugly as hell (b) the valve will burn up in short order close to the turbo and (c) the quiet side becomes too restrictive or loud due to packaging constraints. I wanted a muffler that looked like a conventional muffler. That meant some really tricky internals.
Another issue is failure mode. With 2 smaller pipes instead of one 3" pipe (like our Street/Hooligan/Outlaw Series) you will have some restriction on the muffled side. If the valve fails and all you have is the muffled side bad things can happen; the engine won't boost and the engine gets hot. I saw this first hand while going through a dozen different valves testing them to failure. The solution was finding a VERY durable stainless valve and having that valve be open as a default. The engine barks when you fire it up as the valve slams shut. Cool side effect!
The sounds this muffler makes and doesn't make are just beautiful. It is so quiet at idle and disappears like a new car at cruise. But when you boost it HOLY $HIT! It just SCREAMS! It's the best sound I have ever had in any car I have owned (I know, maybe you should own more types of cars). My 930 does have my tuned headers which add to it but with the Euro J-pipe it still sounded really good.
But that's not all.
You can modulate the valve. You learn quickly how to drive the car so that the valve stays shut all the time, or you can lug the engine and open the valve (self inflicted boost lag anyone?) so the turbo whistle can be heard loud and clear! Awesome!
I'm going to have my daughter film the car tomorrow afternoon and with luck we can post it.
I'm glad you have something after all that work.
Old 04-01-2017, 08:37 PM
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I am soooo excited for you,i haven't even hurd it and i want one.

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Old 04-01-2017, 09:51 PM
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Hi Brian,

looks as if you've got a cool project there but i'm particularly curious after that sound sample! I know i'll never be able to afford a 930 but my uncle has been talking about buying one for a few years now and my advice from day one has been: color etc don't matter that much, but be sure to put a rarlyl8 exhaust on the damn thing! I've been playing youtube vids over and iver just for the sound of that so yeah, i'm looking forward to that new sample...
Old 04-02-2017, 04:12 AM
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Hoping you can post the video.

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Old 04-02-2017, 12:54 PM
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We did a quick video this evening as I was running out of time. The download is taking hours, I'll get it posted tomorrow sometime. Sure hope the sound comes out somewhere close to real-life, this thing sounds wicked on the pipe! Chirped 2nd gear which is very rare with these gummy tires.

Sound is not audible as it would be live, seems it only records inside the cabin and not so much outside the window. Need to put a mike on the bumper.

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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8

Last edited by RarlyL8; 04-03-2017 at 04:47 AM..
Old 04-02-2017, 08:01 PM
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great to hear you're back on the road there B!

and to hear (literally) yer new project come to fruition - sounds TITS!

and lol @ your daughter - too funny

WE'VE GOT BOOST!!!
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:42 AM
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