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e-speedster's Avatar
 
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Location: stavanger, norway
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quick "worn out" signs_3 LDZ

Hi - my 78 turbo has a newly overhauled turbo - but started to let oil through etc

- took it out and it has significant play on axle - both in out and left/right.
Ive heard that in out is ok - but the rest is no good - can anybody confirm before I pull the trigger on a K27?

The guy who overhauled sticks to that it is still perfect......

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eivind hornnes
79 930 blue/blue & 74 914 silver w/chrome & black
X 97 993 C2S - red/cashmere
X 78 911 Speedster - silver/black
-and prev. 20 other porsches
Old 02-01-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-speedster View Post
but started to let oil through etc
- took it out and it has significant play on axle - both in out and left/right.
= NOT perfect... Need to get a refund and upgrade.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infraredcalvin View Post
= not perfect... Need to get a refund and upgrade.
+ 1.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:49 PM
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I hear you...... - but the car is now loctaed in Norway and the "rebuild" took place in LA.....
At leat now I know that I have to buy the K27....Thanx guys
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eivind hornnes
79 930 blue/blue & 74 914 silver w/chrome & black
X 97 993 C2S - red/cashmere
X 78 911 Speedster - silver/black
-and prev. 20 other porsches
Old 02-02-2012, 06:36 AM
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The k27 is such an improvement its worth the money to swap it out. I have a k27S and its fantastic with my 3.4 liter and SC cams. Get some headers and an upgraded intercooler and its night and day difference.
Fred
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:50 AM
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Consider a Garret GT35R.
It's less money than a new K27 dinasaur and blows it away making more power everywhere with less turbo lag.

Some people that sell K27's like to say they're a simple bolt on... thats not totally true. You still have to modify the turbo support bracket and enlarge one side of the hole in the engine tin where the turbo compressor pipe goes through because the offset of those sections of a K27 is a little different than a 3ldz.

The K27 7006 is a good durable turbo though if you can find one and want to stay with a journal bearing KKK Borg Warner.

Compared to a K27 7200 it has a slightly smaller compressor wheel and a larger better breathing exhaust turbine wheel and housing. The lower exhaust back pressure between the combustion chambers and the exhaust turbine with a 7006 let more exhaust out during the exhaust stroke so more fresh air and gas mixture can be forced in during the intake stroke.
That's healthier for the motor and allows it to make more top end horsepower than a 7200 with boost coming on about 300 rpms later than the 7200.
Old 02-02-2012, 09:06 AM
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turbos should have a little play in and out, but not side to side, you dont want that wheel making any contact with the housing...

i had a Innovative dual ball bearing turbo on my STi, and it had more play then any turbo i had seen before, but was told that was normal...i swear it would keep spinning for 2-3 minutes after i shut the car off...
Old 02-02-2012, 09:17 AM
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[QUOTE=jimtweet;6532682]turbos should have a little play in and out, but not side to side QUOTE]

My experience is opposite in journal bearing turbos. I've never noticed any in out play with a healthy turbo and if there is any noticable, the thrust bearing is worn out.

All journal bearing turbos have to have some noticable side play because of the design of the journal bearings but not so much that the turbine or compressor wheels ever touch the housings they're in.

Journal bearings are swimming in oil with oil clearance between the inside diameter and the exteme high speed steel turbo shaft and the outside diameter and the stationary cast iron bearing housing. This oil clearance allows the journal bearing to rotate at around half the rotational speed of the turbo shaft while swimming in oil.

Journal bearings have some drag from the viscous oil while they should never make metal to metal contact with the shaft and bearing housing and because of the small resistance of oil viscosity they have more turbo lag on acceleration and spool down quicker after shutting off the motor than ball bearing turbos.
Old 02-02-2012, 10:12 AM
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So some play can be ok? The K 27 just arrived and has no play at all either way compared to the 3LDZ - and it comes froma 965 with approx 40k miles on it......

The 3LDZ in question her is overhauled from a company called Turbo-Performance in Van Nuys - LA
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79 930 blue/blue & 74 914 silver w/chrome & black
X 97 993 C2S - red/cashmere
X 78 911 Speedster - silver/black
-and prev. 20 other porsches
Old 02-03-2012, 04:20 AM
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The shaft has to have some lateral play because of the inner and outer oil clearance for the journal bearing design in a K27 turbo.
If you are wiggleing the compressor wheel end of the shaft side to side with your fingers watch the small clearance between the outer edge of one of the compressor blades and the compressor housing. That small clearance will get bigger and smaller as the shaft moves sideways a little.

If you can't feel it or see it that doesn't mean much because who knows how well you're doing that or your your ability to see or feel it. Mount a dial gauge on the housing with the measuring tip on the end of the shaft and do it again to see the movement.

If there really is no lateral play at all in a journal bearing oil clearance it means the bearing on the turbine side and possibly also the compressor side is probably loaded up with burnt oil carbon also called coke filling the oil clearances. When that gets really bad it will cook the bearing, piston ring oil seal on the hot exhaust turbine side and shaft ruining it and leak oil like this one from a K27 7200 with an oversized Holset compressor wheel, modified backplate, and aftermarket compressor housing to fit it. The builder called it a K27HFS.
You can see the small oil holes in the cooler running compressor side journal bearing on the left that isn't burnt up. The exhaust turbine side bearing on the right is totally cooked and destroyed.


On the left is the K27HFS that was broken in slowly with no boost for the first 150 miles and was idled for a minute too cool down the turbo before shutting off the motor.
It ended up with oil coking, burnt bearings, and eroded piston ring oil seals and shaft grooves that they run in after only 900 easy miles using 20w-50 oil... twice, and an old reliable K27 7006 I bought used on the right.
This 7006 has been in my car for the last 3 or 4 years and works perfectly. It never leaks or smokes any oil and makes lots of boost.


I got my K27 information from Bob at Durabilt turbo. http://www.durabilt-turbo.com/
They are the #1 best turbo rebuilder in the USA.
Old 02-03-2012, 07:55 AM
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Just to add to Jim's comments, some small amount of lateral play is normal given the already lose tolerances in the journal bearings. Be sure that - when checking for play - you're "wiggling" the compressor end of the turbo shaft and not the exhaust end.

Someplace, I've got filed information on the runnout specs, etc. For those without a good dial gauge to measure the deflection, there is a quick method of sliding a .010 feeler gauge between the compressor blades and the housing while deflecting the shaft to it's maximum amount.

Ah! Found it:::

On new turbos the end play seems to be well under .005 and often hard to detect with your hands. If its exceeding .005 the ring seals will take a beating and are more likely to pass oil.
Lateral play, roughly .010 to .015 measured radially at the nut or at the extension of the turbine.
When the radial play is around .025 but more importantly if the feeler gauge measurement between the wheels and the housings gets down to .005 its time to have the unit overhauled prior to having the wheels rub which will ruin the balance and potentially damage the wheels.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:53 AM
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Thanx again for thorough information! You guys impress me with knowledge!

From what I read here and checked on the 3 LDZ it has far too much play.....
My mechanic installed the K27 from a 91 turbo now - but sadly were still using the original muffler/exhaust set up from US version 79 - still trying to sort a good euro system

BUT - I am very excited to try out the new turbo
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79 930 blue/blue & 74 914 silver w/chrome & black
X 97 993 C2S - red/cashmere
X 78 911 Speedster - silver/black
-and prev. 20 other porsches
Old 02-08-2012, 12:21 PM
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nice looking car...

post your thoughts on your new turbo after you get a few miles under your belt. Philip
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:25 PM
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You won't be too terribly impressed with the K27 until the Euro heat exchangers and a free flowing muffler are in place. Once those supporting devices are in you will be amazed. The Euro system alone is worth 30HP, the muffler and K27 another 30. Without the Euro system the K27 will remain choked up but will still boost quicker than the 3LDZ.

As for shaft play, general rule is very little to none on a dry bearing housing and absolutely none when wet. I check cores by simply grabbing both impellers with my thumb and finger, if I get more than a small click and wiggle they go in the trash.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:00 PM
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ive got a set of euro heat exchangers (88 930) boxed and ready to ship if there is any interest
Old 02-08-2012, 03:29 PM
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Eivind,
Great car, I really like the color. I saw it when it was in California. If you ever want to replace the decals with fresh ones, let me know. I have them.

Tom
Old 02-08-2012, 03:47 PM
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I inquired for a set of euro heat/muffler etc from a local dealer

xbmwguy - yes please let me know what I have to expect paying for them

Tom - do you know christian johnsen then?

Now my mechanic has some trouble finding out what this part does(we have a leak in the CiS system..and also want to pull all the US smog set up):




Also this one wasn't connected at all.....:



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eivind hornnes
79 930 blue/blue & 74 914 silver w/chrome & black
X 97 993 C2S - red/cashmere
X 78 911 Speedster - silver/black
-and prev. 20 other porsches
Old 02-09-2012, 05:10 AM
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I met Christian once when I was looking for a 930. He had quite a few different cars. I really liked that 930. I took lots of pictures of it. He said he had the window sticker, and the stripes were original and on the sticker.They were really cool, but faded

Old 02-09-2012, 07:18 AM
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That is the bypass Valve. Your mechanic really ought to know, or at least know where to find the info, so he'd also know how to fix it. If he doesn't you might be paying for hom to learn things you might as well do yourself.

I suggest starting a new thread. I think that'll get more response, quicker.
Old 02-09-2012, 07:59 AM
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I'll start a new thread yes.... But is the big long spring and "piston" thing the bypass valve??!! You mean the smaller metal thing right in pic 2 and three right Bypass valve.

Tom - that house is very familiar.....hehe. He ended up resealing the whole engine - but they skipped doing the CiS/exhaust and turbo right.....The car arrived to Norway last summer
People really like the color combo - we just bought a museum quality white/black 83 euro turbo, which is the color combo I always preffered.
Funny thing is that this one gets all the attention

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eivind hornnes
79 930 blue/blue & 74 914 silver w/chrome & black
X 97 993 C2S - red/cashmere
X 78 911 Speedster - silver/black
-and prev. 20 other porsches
Old 02-09-2012, 11:01 AM
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