no whine from CDI, no power to fuel pumps...related?

[jimtweet]

ok,..im freaking out and need to learn to take a step back and take a breath, but anyway,... 1980 930 3.3 car was running fine before it was taken apart for the winter overhaul... in turning the key, new battery and new fuel pumps were installed week before it was taken apart and worked perfectly fine, the car cranks very slowly and weak... i did notice that i am NOT getting a whine at the stock bosch CDI unit I am NOT getting any power to fuel pumps 1. i tried jumping the fuel pump relays and nothing 2. disconnected plug at air meter, and still nothing 3. grounded overboost sensor and still nothing I am reading every thread i can, but is there a way to test the CDI unit out of the car? what pin on cdi unit should be getting power? only thing that is a question in my mind is alternator wires, i removed to blast and paint my fan, i am about 98% positive i put them back correctly as per pics i took does CDI not whining and no power to fuel pumps sound related?

[DSPTurtle]

Did you check the shut down timer relay in the rear of the car?

[jimtweet]

Originally Posted by DSPTurtle

Did you check the shut down timer relay in the rear of the car?

uhhhh whats this? never heard of it

heres what i got...




im flippin freakin, i hate electrical stuff, im bad at it, i dont understand half of it, and i dont even know where to start,...and i know this was all working fine before i took it apart

[oilonly]

CDI test thread from Permatune, maybe this can help.

Permatune CDI fried - MSD equivalent is 6AL?

[jimtweet]

Originally Posted by oilonly

CDI test thread from Permatune, maybe this can help.

Permatune CDI fried - MSD equivalent is 6AL?

i did not touch the distributor or its wires

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by jimtweet

in turning the key, new battery and new fuel pumps were installed week before it was taken apart and worked perfectly fine, the car cranks very slowly and weak...

Pretty much all the power which goes to various parts of the engine/car begin at the connections to the starter. That slow and weak cranking may be telling you something. Make sure you've got good connections - and correctly connected - down there.
Also - and this goes without saying - (but I'm saying it anyway): If you had the engine out, then certainly make sure the main wiring harness was plugged back in.

[cole930]

Jim:

The lack of a whine in the CD could be the low voltage issue with the battery. Get a charger on it and make sure the battery is fully charged and keep it attached while you are checking things out.

Rear ele. panel: Black box left of the CD is voltage regulator, next left rear window defrost relay, next left cutoff delay. Red relay is one of 3 associated with the fuel pumps. There are 2 up front and both need to be red. The one in the rear is the overboost and air meter contact relay. Pull and clean the pins on each of the 3 relays. I've attached the fuel pump circuit diagram.




Cole

[PrimeMvr]

I've read your build thread. You have skills and wiring is cake compared to the work you've done! Unfortunately it does take a lot of hunting and patience with these cars that over the years have had things added/moved/replaced.

I'll add to the start with the basics suggestions above.

1. Check the voltage at the battery with nothing on. A strong battery will be 12.5 to 13.5V. This does guarantee that you have a strong battery but if below 12.5 you know for sure you need a charge at a minimum.

2. Check the voltage between the positive battery post and a clean bolt nearby. Should be the same as step 1. If not check ground strap from battery to chassis.

3. Turn the key to run (not crank), pull the CDI plug and check the voltage between it and the engine block. On my 6 pin it's one of the middle pins that shows +12.5. If it's low, continue with my other steps. If it's zero, I don't know specifically where to lead you but Cole's diagram should help.

4. Check the voltage between positive starter bolt and clean chassis spot. Should be same as step 1. If not check the wire there and at the positive battery post.

5. Check the voltage between the starter post and the engine block. Should be the same as step 1. If not check your transmission ground strap.

6. Go back to the battery posts and check the voltage while cranking. Anything less than 10V would indicate a weak battery (even though it's charged to 12.5 when idle)

Wiring issues are always a process of elimination and tracing. Rule out the basics of battery and grounding before ripping into harnesses. Without those two everything else is moot. Good luck. I'm sure it's a huge frustration to have done so much great work only to be stymied by something that is sure to make you say "duh" once you find it. I'm in the middle of a 3.0 rebuild and it's been stupid little stuff that has taken the most time. Ask me about the two hours to rig up a ramp to get the engine from the atv jack to engine stand because I was a dope and bought a stand with a center leg and jack with a crossbar. Clunk. Duh!

You'll get it.

[jimtweet]

Originally Posted by PrimeMvr

I've read your build thread. You have skills and wiring is cake compared to the work you've done! Unfortunately it does take a lot of hunting and patience with these cars that over the years have had things added/moved/replaced.

I'll add to the start with the basics suggestions above.

1. Check the voltage at the battery with nothing on. A strong battery will be 12.5 to 13.5V. This does guarantee that you have a strong battery but if below 12.5 you know for sure you need a charge at a minimum.
OK, brand new battery, 3 days old, from my 66 mustang, reads 12.75

2. Check the voltage between the positive battery post and a clean bolt nearby. Should be the same as step 1. If not check ground strap from battery to chassis.
ok, positive battery to front strut bolt reads 12.75

3. Turn the key to run (not crank), pull the CDI plug and check the voltage between it and the engine block. On my 6 pin it's one of the middle pins that shows +12.5. If it's low, continue with my other steps. If it's zero, I don't know specifically where to lead you but Cole's diagram should help.
OK, I HAVE NO POWER TO PIN 15

4. Check the voltage between positive starter bolt and clean chassis spot. Should be same as step 1. If not check the wire there and at the positive battery post.
ok, checked positive post to trans ground strap, reads 12.75

5. Check the voltage between the starter post and the engine block. Should be the same as step 1. If not check your transmission ground strap.
ok, reads 12.75

6. Go back to the battery posts and check the voltage while cranking. Anything less than 10V would indicate a weak battery (even though it's charged to 12.5 when idle)
this is 11-12,...

Wiring issues are always a process of elimination and tracing. Rule out the basics of battery and grounding before ripping into harnesses. Without those two everything else is moot. Good luck. I'm sure it's a huge frustration to have done so much great work only to be stymied by something that is sure to make you say "duh" once you find it. I'm in the middle of a 3.0 rebuild and it's been stupid little stuff that has taken the most time. Ask me about the two hours to rig up a ramp to get the engine from the atv jack to engine stand because I was a dope and bought a stand with a center leg and jack with a crossbar. Clunk. Duh!

You'll get it.

another thing,...i removed my starter wires (brand new starter), and reinstalled them with the black wire on first, then red,

i removed the two bolts that bolt intercooler to coil bracket, replaced with new shiny bolts and washers...

turned the key and NOW PUMPS WORK, if i unplug blue air meter plug, pumps run constantly ...pulg it in, and only run for split second when i turn key,...

still, NO POWER TO CDI...and car is still cranking very very slowly

i did notice, i just had my trans completely rebuilt by Gary Fairbanks in CT, i have installed a wevo shifter and coupler, the car is extremely hard to shift in and out of gears...

i am not 100% sure the clutch is hooked up correctly, but i think it is

if the clutch was not correct, or the trans was in gear or something, would this be causing the straining sound from trying to start?

where do i start to look for power on CDI unit

[jimtweet]

guys i apologize for sounding like a child and asking for so much help, but i really really dont understand electrical stuff

[jimtweet]

ok, i have NO power at pin #2 on the 14 pin plug,...

would this be related to alternator wiring?

[equality72521]

Look in the end of the plug that connects to the CDI and make sure the terminals have not backed out. Ask me how I thought of that.

[equality72521]

See if you have power at terminal 30 and terminal "S" on the ignition delay relay. Also make sure terminal 31 is grounded.

[equality72521]

Here is the circuit. C is the alternator, J61 is the delay relay, and N15 is the CDI.

[jimtweet]

im done for the night man, this is driving me nuts, i will check again tomorrow

[IMR-Merlin]

Take a step away from the multimeter and grab a beer or 10.

Make a fresh start in the morning.

I just got done bead blasting the front struts and I forgot to wear my particle mask.... I got some seriously crunchy snots right now..... if you want that mystery controller, it's yours.

[turbo nut]

If I remember right there is a power wire from the alternator to the 14 pin connector. Did you reconnect this when you had the alternator disconnected? Large red wire from starter to alternator small red wire from same lug to 14 pin.

[jimtweet]

Originally Posted by turbo nut

If I remember right there is a power wire from the alternator to the 14 pin connector. Did you reconnect this when you had the alternator disconnected? Large red wire from starter to alternator small red wire from same lug to 14 pin.

i am thinking this is alternator related, but i have pics of the wires i put back together on alternator and they look to be correct against everything i see online...i might pull it today to double check.

[equality72521]

Here is a drawing someone here did and I saved. I think it was Brian (Rarlyl8).

[jimtweet]

Originally Posted by equality72521

Look in the end of the plug that connects to the CDI and make sure the terminals have not backed out. Ask me how I thought of that.

no clue what i did, but all is working now,...i took the plug off the cdi and gave a push to all spades, removed 14 pin connector and gave a push to all spades, removed trans ground, wire brushed the stud, reconnected strap,...

turned the key, and VROOOOM

i have a really weird klicking sound coming from the fan ...i need to figure that out...

and i am still having problems with clutch and shifter