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Forte500
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Greenwich
Posts: 162
Water Methanol without tuning

Getting ready to install AEM water methanol kit.....simply for safety and to cool the intake charge. Motor is heavily modified (500+WHP) so I WON'T be turning up the boost at all and messing with the fuel maps.

Thinking 20% Meth - for cooling and little octane boost won't impact AFR's significantly and/or hurt the engine...anyone?




Stats:
8:1 Compression
3.4L Big Bore
Motec M48
3.2 Car Intake
Boost 1.1 BAR max
GT35R Turbo
AFR range: 10.5 - 11.5

Old 05-31-2012, 06:33 PM
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forte:

The methanol is going to help lower afr's. Run a 50/50 mix, I use 1Gal. of Walmart washer fluid, the -20% because it's most always available, and 1 bottle of heet. With 8:1 CR and 1.1 bar of boost it would be smart to error on the safe side. The higher meth content won't hurt a thing and at $1.82 for the fluid and
$.98 for Heet that,s real cheap insurance.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 05-31-2012 at 08:02 PM..
Old 05-31-2012, 07:53 PM
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50-50...

is what I run. I found in my CIS it would lower AFR's about .5 EFI should compensate for that on it's own. I also found that in Canada the supply of windshield washer was inconsistent with the 4 seasons. Now I buy the meth and mix my own. Philip
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87 930 GHL/Rarlyl8/Garretson/GT3582R/1 Bar/Wevo shift, mounts/Meth inj/LM-2/Custom Fuchs/Carrera intake manifold/Xtreme Carrera heads P&P/3.4/DR 993SS cams/ Mahl/Pauter/JE/Niresist/ARP/twin COP/8.25:1/KEP stage 2/twin tials/close 2,3,4th. MS3Pro Evo 500+ HP, BTSOMP Dyno
Old 06-01-2012, 01:54 AM
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Forte, keep us updated.
Please also if possible do some logging.
I have quite similar engine setup as you and have been thinking about doing the same.
Are not after the HP gain as you say, more for safety
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1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo
Old 06-01-2012, 04:28 AM
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Wiper fluids will vary due to the seasonal temp changes. You will find
temp ranges posted on the labels. You also want to make sure that you
check the contents to avoid any fluids containing Glycol. A typical -20*
fluid will contain aprox. 25-35% methanol and by adding (1) 12oz. bottle
of Heet to 1 qal. of Walmart SuperTech 2000 - 20* fluid will put you very
near a 50/50 mix.

My Snow WMI:




A List of Fluids:






Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.

Last edited by cole930; 06-01-2012 at 05:49 AM..
Old 06-01-2012, 05:37 AM
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Forte500
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Greenwich
Posts: 162
Cole..thanks for all your help. Prob reach out to you after the install....

Why not go 20% Meth vs. 50/50. I don't want the AFR's /tuning changing.

Notice anymore power without changing anything (octane and colder air)?
Old 06-01-2012, 08:58 AM
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forte:

Some good WMI info for you:

Benefits Of Water Methanol Injection:

Lower air charge temperatures by 40-200+ degrees
Increase your fuel’s octane by 10-25+ points
Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Removes carbon build-up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Reduces and helps eliminate engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

Quote: Injecting a fine mist of water methanol directly into the engines incoming air charge has a substantial cooling effect. As the water methanol injection mixes with the hot incoming air charge, it quickly converts from a liquid state to a gas state (steam). In doing so, it absorbs significant amounts of heat from the air charge. Depending on the build of the motor, whether naturally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged; intercooled or non-intercooled, decreases in air charge temperatures will vary between 50-200+ degrees with cylinder temperatures dropping as much as 300 degree’s.


Quote: Many of you will be surprised by this. When injected properly, water alone will not only significantly cool down the air charge temperatures, but will also act as a very high-octane booster. Read that again if you need too. Researchers estimate up to a 20-point raise in octane can be achieved by using water injection with 87-93 octane gas. No need for expensive racing fuels or octane boosters. A simple water injection system will significantly cool down your air charge temperatures, while dramatically increasing your fuels octane. The best part is, water is free and racing gas is notoriously expensive.

Quote: Most significantly, initial horsepower increases are due primarily to the significant reductions in air charge temperatures offered by water methanol injection . Along with the initial cooler aircharge temperature, comes a denser air charge. This creates a greater expansion of power within the cylinder, since pressure is directly proportional to temperature. The combustion process also turns the water droplets into a vapor which also helps to create a pressure raise (much in the same way as does a steam engine) and prevents the temperatures in the combustion from rushing to a sharp peak (as it does in a standard engine) and then dropping off. Instead, the combustion heat increases more slowly, reaching a lower peak temperature and descending more gradually. In addition, the longer overall combustion duration creates more pressure than does a standard engine’s cycle. Due to the significantly cooler air charge temperatures, cooler cylinder temperatures and dramatic increase in octane offered by a water methanol injection system; users can now safely run higher amounts of boost with more timing then ever before without it.

Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 06-01-2012, 10:07 AM
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One thing you need to keep in mind. If you do not plan on turning up the boost or adding timing to your current "safe" tune then adding water/meth will most likely cause a loss in power. Again if your tune is already "safe" on the fuel you run.

I've been running meth for years... hands down straight meth works better, but by watering the meth down you lower the chance of a fire if the meth line ruptures.
Old 06-03-2012, 11:13 AM
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What Darrin is saying is true, at the same time the water and methanol being sprayed in before the throttle body is cooling down the intake air which makes it more dense and that alone makes more power with no changes to boost or timing just like driving in cold winter weather does so you'd have to be on a dyno to know for sure.

For the origonal question I would run just water and experience that, then add methanol in increasing amounts and road test while watching AFR's and feeling acceleration until you're around 50/50 and decide for yourself what works best for you.

I buy pure mehanol in a 5 gallon bucket at a fiberglass and paint supply store. Last time it was about $38 for 5 gallons. I use the large windsheild washer tank under the left headlight for the resovoir and it works great.
Old 06-03-2012, 11:54 AM
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Forte500
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I'm looking for the "cold weather" feel and a bit of safety. Currently my AFR needle is consistenly hovering 11 +/-. I set it up that way in case of bad gas or for a bit of safety.

Originally, I was going to try a halo spray of water or C02 over the intercooler - but thought this was much better approach.
Old 06-03-2012, 05:45 PM
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"Injecting a fine mist of water methanol directly into the engines incoming air charge ..."

What rate of mix injection do you use - assuming you inject near the IC outlet, I guess?
Old 06-04-2012, 11:05 AM
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Forte500
 
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I am going to weld a bung at location #1 at end of intercooler and before BOV and intake temp sender (look closely). Think this is best (only ) location to do this. Plenty of time to atomize before throttle body and be able to measure difference.

Will try 20% Meth and increase to 50% like recommended.
Old 06-04-2012, 11:57 AM
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I assume you use some kind of injector, like a fuel injector or so... few questions:

How much solution, at what rate, do you inject?

How do you control the injection flow, is it steady?

and under what pressure you inject? At that location the charge is .8bar or so... you need to beat that pressure - at least.
Old 06-04-2012, 12:18 PM
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Pump pressure for most good WMI pumps is going to be in excess of 200 psi.


The kit supplied nozzles will determine the available amount of flow:


Nozzle Identification Chart:

Nozzle Color / Nozzle Size

Yellow 60 ml/min
Purple 225 ml/min
Black 100 ml/min
Green 175 ml/min 250 – 360 RWHP
Red 375 ml/min 350 – 475 RWHP
Blue 625 ml/min 474 - 600 RWHP

The rate, onset, and duration of injection is set by adjusting pots on the controller.

The nozzles automize the mixture nearly immediately upon mixing with the air flow of the intake trac.





Cole
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Cole - 80 930 "The Old Sled"
Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 06-04-2012, 12:43 PM
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The answers to your questions will be different with different WMI maufacturers so it is best to go to their websites and read the information and call them once you have some idea how they work.

The injection nozzles come in different orifice sizes for different horspower ratings and you can use more than one and or operate them sequentially with various controllers. It all depends how much you want to spend and how complicated you want to get.

The injection nozzle has a little angularly fluted round brass slug in the end behind the nozzle orifice that spins fast as water or methanol flows over it. That helps atomize and fan out the water/meth solution and keeps the back side of the orifice clean from possible water deposits if you use tap water like me.

You want the injection nozzle as close to the throttle butterfly as possible. Mounting it upstream in a pipe will not atomize the water/meth better, it will do just the opposite as the water wets out on the walls of the pipe leading to the throttle body and becomes more liqued as it streams down the inner walls of the pipe in the process.
That is the same problem with CIS injection as it keeps spraying atomized gas into the intake ports while the intake valve is closed between intake strokes. FWIW, CIS stands for constant injection system.

The Cooling Mist Water Injection, Methanol Injection, Alcohol Injection Systems | Coolingmist WMI kit I installed uses the same high quality recirculating water meth pump most of the other maufacturers use. It's the same pump Cole has in his system from a different vendor.
It is a relatively smooth running diaphram pump and is adjustable from 150-250psi and usually comes set at 200psi when you buy it.
There is a little stainless 5/64" allen head in the business end and turning it clockwise raises pressure by increasing preload on the internal diaphram spring.
I was told not to turn that allen head more than a quarter turn clockwise for higher pressure or the 1/4" nylon hoses risk blowing out of the press in quick release connectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel Antonett View Post
I assume you use some kind of injector, like a fuel injector or so... few questions:

How much solution, at what rate, do you inject?

How do you control the injection flow, is it steady?

and under what pressure you inject? At that location the charge is .8bar or so... you need to beat that pressure - at least.
Old 06-04-2012, 01:41 PM
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Great feedback. I love this forum...

Ordering the Coolingmist Stage 1 as we speak... just another weekend in the garage.

Sorry, I didn't mean to kidnap the thread.
Old 06-04-2012, 01:53 PM
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I'm also finally instaling my snow system tonight! Cool (scuze the pun)
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:07 PM
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Thats the same kit I installed using the M5 nozzle for 300-500HP and it works great! Water Injection, Methanol Injection, Alcohol Injection Systems | Coolingmist

I mounted the adjustable pressure switch that turns the pump and a little blue light I put in the dash back behind my VDO boost gauge with velcro and tee'd it into the vacuum/boost line hose that operates my boost gauge and power brakes.

I adjusted the pressure switch to turn on the WMI pump at about .7bar
I didn't want to spend alot of money on controllers and stuff and this kit works great for me. I don't get too much water/meth and it doesn't make the motor misfire or bog it down when it turns on. If it did I would lower the pressure and or use the next smaller injection nozzle.

I mounted the WMI pump where the windsheild washer pump origonally was and remounted the washer pump along side the one size smaller than stock Walmart battery I use.
I ran the 1/4" nylon line through a small snug fitting rubber grommet i put in a hole I drilled for the line going to the washer tank under the headlight. I put a couple hose fittings and a low water level sender for a blinking red led to tell me the water is running low. Also put a clear pvc tube along the side of the tank that visually shows me how much water/meth is in it by looking in the left front fender well.

Here's a pic of the WMI pump installed and a 5 gallon bucket of methanol I can buy locally - the cheapest and easist way I can get it.
I mix it around 50/50 water and meth or 40% water 60% meth. The 15' of 1/4" nylon hose that came in the kit was just enough but I got more from a hardware store for very low cost. It's the same stuff they use in household refrigerator ice maker installations.

I ran the line from the pump along side the battery, under the fuse panel, and into the car from under the dash and then along under the carpetting along the edge of the floorpan along with a bunch of other wires and into the motor compartment along with a bunch of wires.
I mounted the WMI check valve and sintered brass water filter in an adel clamp on the side of the CIS so it would be easy to remove and clean if needed.


The WMI check valve mounted next to the air cleaner in this pic. I drilled and tapped a 1/4"npt hole for the WMI nozzle in the 1/4" thick cast aluminum Kokeln intercooler down pipe about 2" above the throttle body.
Old 06-04-2012, 02:42 PM
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Forte500
 
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Guys, you think mouting closer to TB is "significantly" better vs. the location #1 in my pic...I won't be able to measure inlet temp.
Old 06-04-2012, 04:10 PM
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You probably wouldn't notice a difference. I see something on the bottom of the 180 after the blow valve. Is that your air temp sender?

You're also wet flowing the inside of an entire carrera manifold from one injector nozzle I think so that has an effect on the water droplits in the air flow accumulating on the inside walls as the air flows through and maybe the methanol stays more evaporated and makes all the runs and curves better... who knows.
I'd call and talk to the guys that sell these kits because they've talked to alot of their customers when they have questions and soloutions so they ought to know.

I can turn mine on anytime without boost too. It's good for experimenting, checking the system, and cooling the heads in short bursts while cruising. You have to be careful with that.
Summer is the time to have it working.

Old 06-04-2012, 04:39 PM
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