Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
gavinc69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bournemouth UK
Posts: 996
Garage



















__________________
1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 03-12-2016, 10:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #301 (permalink)
Registered User
 
gavinc69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bournemouth UK
Posts: 996
Garage














__________________
1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 03-12-2016, 10:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #302 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,092
Do you see a tach signal in TS while cranking? It will likely read 250-300rpm while cranking. If you do not have an incoming signal it will not start.

How did you wire your tach input signal? From tach wire, from CDI, from VR sensor in distributor, from coil negative (through zener diode and resistor)?
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 03-12-2016, 11:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #303 (permalink)
Registered User
 
gavinc69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bournemouth UK
Posts: 996
Garage
The MS tach wire (grey one if I remember) is wired to the tach out on the MSD (this also goes into the Porsche wiring harness and feeds the rev counter I think).
So basically the MSD tach signal wire has a small electrical block on it that both the rev counter & MS ECU connect to.
I wired it up identically to how it was when working as FrankenCIS.

I can defiantly remember seeing the rpm dial on TunerStudio moving but I don't remember what readings.
But I will double check the tach wiring and readings first thing tomorrow.
__________________
1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3

Last edited by gavinc69; 03-12-2016 at 11:28 AM..
Old 03-12-2016, 11:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #304 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 610
Gavin, wondering why you decided to move away from the FrankenCIS concept to the full EFI megasquirt?
Old 03-12-2016, 01:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #305 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,885
Your trigger angle is 37.4 degrees!! Is your trigger that far off??

If you have offset at 37.4 plus hypothetical 10 degrees for idle, that over 47 degrees timing.

Don't think any engine would start at that much timing.
Old 03-12-2016, 01:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #306 (permalink)
Registered User
 
scottrx7tt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 856
He is still using the distributor to control timing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Your trigger angle is 37.4 degrees!! Is your trigger that far off??

If you have offset at 37.4 plus hypothetical 10 degrees for idle, that over 47 degrees timing.

Don't think any engine would start at that much timing.
__________________
1979 911SC widebody conversion. 3.1 engine, 3.2 liter heads, carrera intake, Microsquirt V3 ECU, K27 7200 High flow turbo, Tial F41 wastegate, Ford EDIS. .7 bar. 402hp 360tq
Old 03-12-2016, 03:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #307 (permalink)
Registered User
 
gavinc69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bournemouth UK
Posts: 996
Garage
MS ECU is connected to :

Tach out from MSD 6AL
Injectors
Air Temp Sensor
Wideband O2 Sensor
Engine Temp Sensor
MAP
Ground
Ignition Live (power)
Fuel Pump

No timing control or TPS, just fuel control at present.

No connection to distributor and no timing control. Still using distributor for timing.

I have noticed in the FrankenCIS for Ignition Option/ Trigger Angle it is set to 0.0 where as in my current setup it is 37.4, no idea how that has changed but I will change it back tomorrow and see what happens.
__________________
1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 03-12-2016, 03:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #308 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,092
A few things about your settings you are going to want to change.

1. you fuel tables scale to 300kPa. There is no way you are running 2 bar of boost. Set the top row at your wastegate spring limit and then rescale your Y fuel load bins to redistribute.

2. You have fuel switching enabled. Don't think you will need this at all. Turn it off.

3. your timing table is only scaled to 100kPa. you need to match this to your fuel (VE) table.

4. Disable EGO control. This can be turned back on once you have the car running and very well tuned.

5. Set your Accel enrichment threshold to the highest number you can. This will effectively turn it off. Turn it back on after you have tuned the fuel map.

6. Your AFR targets will need to be revised and you can do this after the car is running and you know what load and rpm you have at certain conditions (idle, cruise, etc).

Let's assume that your wiring is setup correctly for now.

Generally in this case you are not getting enough fuel. If the car does not start increase the req_fuel value by 0.5 and try again. Keep increasing the req_fuel value by the same increment until the car will start. Once it starts you will have fuel controlled by the value in the VE table and the warmup enrichment (WUE). You started the car cold and you know that the total pulsewidth of fuel is enough to start the car. So as the car warms up it will start to show exceptionally rich. You now have to start the tuning process of adjusting the fuel trim (VE table) at each operating point.

Don't start to really modify the fuel map until the car is near full temp or your WUE values are 0 (no additional fuel= 100%). When tuning idle target the lowest MAP reading you can get. Currently you should ignore the AFR reading.

Next, you have to tune the free rev zones of the engine. slowly rev the engine with the gas pedal and tune each point on the curve until you can rev the engine. Then bring up the rest of the areas of the VE Table to blend with your free rev curve.

Now you are ready to drive.

I prefer to manually tune the car at this point with someone else driving. Go slow and methodically hit as many datapoints/bins as you can in the table as you can. You should be able to tell if the car runs well or doesn't .

Since you are fuel only at this point changing the trigger angle will not do anything.
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 03-12-2016, 05:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #309 (permalink)
Registered User
 
gavinc69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bournemouth UK
Posts: 996
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Gavin, wondering why you decided to move away from the FrankenCIS concept to the full EFI megasquirt?
Only reason I changed from FrankenCIS to EFI was trying to get a NA engine with K-Jetronic to flow enough fuel to correctly and safely with a turbo conversion seemed to be a never ending story of upgrades and part swaps with no definitive do this and it will all work OK.
I drew the line at swapping the meter head off another make/model of car.

FrankenCIS was great though, easy install and worked a treat.
The issues I had where with the components Porsche installed on the SC as they weren't intended for a turbo setup.
__________________
1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 03-13-2016, 10:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #310 (permalink)
Registered User
 
gavinc69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bournemouth UK
Posts: 996
Garage
Great news..........................ITS ALIVE

Thanks for all the replies and PM's guys, I really appreciate your help and couldn't of done it with out you.

First off I changed all the barometric settings from all 0 to all 100.
I also turned off the split table Fuel VE.
It then sort of started but died so I manually changed the Req-Fuel setting from 8.6 to 7.0 and it fired up but idled like crap and my AFR gauge was showing 17's
So I changed it from 7.0 to 6.5 then 6.0 and so on each time until it idled better and better and the AFR dropped to around 14.5
It was still a bit rough so I then turned off the EGO control and that improved idle again.

I also then adjusted the Fuel VE at idle to get a nice sold smooth idle at 14.5 to 14.7 AFR

I had been using my dash AFR gauge to this point as the ECU gauge was at least 2 points out for some reason.

So I started looking into calibrating the Wideband sensor.
After looking at the original FrankenCIS setup it didn't seem to specify a sensor type so I just chose 'Custom Linear WB' and went with the standard settings for that. It seemed to be more accurate but still too far off my dash gauge.
So I played with the settings and monitored the results until the ECU AFR gauge was as close as I could get to the dash AFR gauge.
End settings where :
Point 1 - Volts 0.0 = AFR 10.0
Piont 2 - Volts 4.0 = AFR 18.5

I also copied over the 'Calibrate Thermister Tables' settings from FrankenCIS.

I then turned back on the EGO control and it started to idle a bit rough again so I had to tweak the Fuel VE table at idle again to get it smooth.

It all seemed so good that once warmed fully I went for a very short drive and even had the Auto Tune running

It defiantly still needs some of the settings tweaking but its working.
The throttle seems very sensitive & lighter now compared to CIS.
I did managed to get a little boost upto about 4K rpm and the AFR was showing a steady 11.7
__________________
1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3

Last edited by gavinc69; 03-13-2016 at 11:11 AM..
Old 03-13-2016, 11:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #311 (permalink)
Registered User
 
scottrx7tt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 856
Glad you got it going! now time for EDIS!
__________________
1979 911SC widebody conversion. 3.1 engine, 3.2 liter heads, carrera intake, Microsquirt V3 ECU, K27 7200 High flow turbo, Tial F41 wastegate, Ford EDIS. .7 bar. 402hp 360tq
Old 03-13-2016, 11:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #312 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Congratulations!

the 14point7 Spartan wideband should be
0v = 10.0
5v = 20.0
so your custom settings are only out by a little bit
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-13-2016, 03:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #313 (permalink)
Registered User
 
flat6pilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bonney Lake, Wa
Posts: 773
Garage
nice work Gavin! I notice your injectors are set to alternating. Mine are set to simultaneous. I was wondering how this affects tuning....
__________________
-Kyle
* 1980 911SC - 3.0l R.o.W 8.6:1 w/ Garrett 30R turbo conversion (.5 bar), Bitz MS-II EFI, Carerra intake, Zork tube, 2300lbs, 360whp
Old 03-13-2016, 07:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #314 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,092
Gavin, glad it's running. Its always a good feeling. Super happy for you.

Please heed my warnings. Do not turn on EGO control until the car is fully tuned. KEEP IT OFF. The correction algorithms can give you false feedback when you are trying to tune. EGO correction is not a substitute for tuning. Your tuning process will take a lot longer and not be as accurate if you turn these corrections on now.

I am not sure why you were seeing the AFR enrich by reducing the req_fuel. That is a global multiplier. Lower req_fuel is less fuel. higher req_fuel is more fuel.

What was happening is that you were so rich you could not burn all the fuel and you have a false lean condition. Eventually you leaned it out to the point where you were closer to some mixture that would actually ignite.

I suggest you do some more time reading the tuning sections in the manuals before you start changing parameters. I don't want to see you have an issue now that you have reached this milestone.

Looking at your VE tables your low rpm, low MAP bins have very high numbers. This is why the car was so rich. You will likely have to decrease the VE bin values by somewhere around 1.44X (0.69) and get your req_fuel value back up to your starting point of 8.3. What will happen is that you will be pumping a lot of fuel under boost. The max value you can enter on a VE table is 255. I guess you will hit that value and not have enough fuel flowing. So you increase the req_fuel and decrease the VE table by the same amount. This is part of the scaling that needs to be setup for your particular engine.
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 03-13-2016, 07:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #315 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat6pilot View Post
nice work Gavin! I notice your injectors are set to alternating. Mine are set to simultaneous. I was wondering how this affects tuning....
The answer to this depends on the particular engine configuration and how your injectors are wired with respect to Bank 1 and Bank 2. Once the car is tuned and running well you can play around with these values (simultaneous versus alternating) as well as the number of squirts per cycle. They can make a difference in idle quality, tip in (off throttle) and low speed performance.

Common plenum and mild cams work well with either simultaneous injection. ITBs and bigger cams with more version often need alternating and more squirts to avoid fuel loss due to reversion and puddling of fuel when it comes back down to the intake valve at low speed.
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 03-13-2016, 07:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #316 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,885
I found my engine loves a richer idle below stoch.
Old 03-13-2016, 09:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #317 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 324
Garage
Gavin,

As Tippy said, you will want to be richer than 14.7 at idle. Something like 13.5 - 13.8. The engine will run cooler at idle with a richer AFR. What is your timing at idle with the distributor. You need to be 10 to 12*. Too much advance at idle can cause to the idle to hunt. Does your MSD retard the spark with increasing boost?
__________________
-Dennis
1977 930 Slant, MS3 EFI, Carrera intake, Twin plug, Powerhaus headers, Magnaflow muffler, Garretson intercooler, GTX3071R
Old 03-14-2016, 09:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #318 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,885
Quote:
Originally Posted by dap930 View Post
Gavin,

As Tippy said, you will want to be richer than 14.7 at idle. Something like 13.5 - 13.8. The engine will run cooler at idle with a richer AFR. What is your timing at idle with the distributor. You need to be 10 to 12*. Too much advance at idle can cause to the idle to hunt. Does your MSD retard the spark with increasing boost?
My engine idles very stable at 8, 10 being the limit. After that, hunt city.
Old 03-14-2016, 10:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #319 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: North of Exit 17
Posts: 7,707
That just doesnt sound right. Mine idles like a rock at 14. At 8, I'm shocked the car even runs...it shouldnt. That rich, I'd expect a false lean reading due to the massive amount of unburnt fuel.

You sure your sensor is OK?
__________________

- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 03-14-2016, 11:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #320 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:08 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.