Porsche Panorama - "The Last 930"

[Mick_D]

You win
I'm guessing a 4.0 motor from you would be a lotta scratch- at least as much as a turbo, eh?

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

Wanna bet?
3.0L Turbo Carrera, runs both factory wing and ducktail.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

No turbos. POSSIBLE supercharger. There's just no room under that '75 turbo tail for an intercooler.

What I really want is a naturally aspirated 4.0 with a billion foot-pounds of torque all the way through the curve.

I'll end up in a 3.2 to start, I bet. It all depends on how patient I can be, because anything I put in there has to be paid for and that'll take a year at least.

So flame on, pipesmoker

Mick, it's either , or Fred Flintstone performance - that N/A 4.0 would piss itself when faced with the former!!!

[Mick_D]

naaah.

[Mick_D]

Or, I tell you waht- you're local to me. Help me get a turbo'd motor on the cheap. Put your money where your mouth is

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

Mick, it's either , or Fred Flintstone performance - that N/A 4.0 would piss itself when faced with the former!!!

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

Or, I tell you waht- you're local to me. Help me get a turbo'd motor on the cheap. Put your money where your mouth is

Gas, grass or azz, Mick; nobody rides for free!!!

[Noah930]

^^^ Then I vote azz. I have no dog in the fight, but figured that is the answer that'll make the transaction most interesting.

[1979-930]

^^^ So that's what Rawknee meant by "He earned it the Hard Way".

[Mick_D]

You stay away from my azz.

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

Gas, grass or azz, Mick; nobody rides for free!!!

[TurboKraft]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

You win
I'm guessing a 4.0 motor from you would be a lotta scratch- at least as much as a turbo, eh?

High power naturally aspirated engines make turbo engines look inexpensive.

Building a 3.8L non-turbo is easy: a set of big bore 102mm P&Cs, and you can reuse and modify your rods and cylinder heads, plus your factory Motronic ECU with a chip.
With a little head work and cams, and a decent exhaust, you have a really nice, responsive street/track driver with about 300hp.
Think 993RS or a little better.

Add ITBs and programmable engine and now you have throttle response like a GT3, a wider torque band, increased redline.
With better cams she'll make power to 7,500rpm.
Oiling mods to crank & bearings highly recommended.
About 350hp on good fuel.
Total blast to drive on the street, great track weapon.

But now you've likely spent as much as one of our really responsive Turbo engines, and those usually start life at 500whp on plain 91-octane pump gas. Recently dynos: 3.6L made 555whp on plain pump gas, 3.8L did 575whp/550wtq.

Once you get past 3.8L, the list of things that have to be changed out expensive. There's no cost cutting when building a 4.0L:
* lightweight billet crankshaft, lightweight forged rods, lightweight pistons & pins, high strength rings, machine-in cylinders, special gaskets, billet pulley
* Xtreme Cylinder Heads -- even modified 964/993 heds become a limiting factor, Xtreme's let you get everything possible out of the 4.0L displacement
* ITBs required -- without them, performance is choked by the single throttle intake, hardly better than a 3.8L
Starting with a plain 964/993 engine, it's easy to have a parts bill of $60k for all rebuild parts, rotating assembly, exhaust, intake, and flywheel+clutch package. Plus labor and tuning. 380-415hp, depending on camshafts, tuning, and fuel quality. That's our 993RS4.0 engine.

But again, at that price point, you would have had a really punchy Turbo engine that felt like a turbocharged GT3: snappy throttle, instant-on torque, 600whp or more on pump gas -- and money left over.


Want over 400whp naturally aspirated? BTDT, dynos of 450whp on high test fuel. Be prepared to spend Motorsports level money.

[Mick_D]

You live in Rarified air, Chris. Guess I'm a wanna-be. I'll find a cranky 3.2 that could use a rebuild and mod it in steps.

[TurboKraft]

That's rare air for most. We build few a year.
NA power is always most expensive $/HP in my experience.

Big bang-for-the-buck: built 3.2L converted into 3.4L, solid rebuild with Turbo oil pump & case squirters. Standard Carrera heads, intake, t-body. Off-the-shelf bolt-ons (headers, muffler, turbo, IC). Programmable engine management.
500whp all day long, piece of cake. Smooth, really responsive, great torque, and bloody fast when you want it to be.

The one we did for that blue "America Roadster Turbo Project" had just basic 3.3L Turbo P&Cs, twin-plug heads. First dyno pull with hardly any ignition timing was 515whp, and she left tuned at 540 or 545whp. Just a beast of a car at throttle, but you could drive it on damp roads without concern because throttle response is accurate and controllable.

[Mick_D]

What would this produce without the turbo? 350? 400?
I'm really interested in having a motor such as this. I may have to pay for it piecemeal.

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

Big bang-for-the-buck: built 3.2L converted into 3.4L, solid rebuild with Turbo oil pump & case squirters. Standard Carrera heads, intake, t-body. Off-the-shelf bolt-ons (headers, muffler, turbo, IC). Programmable engine management.
500whp all day long, piece of cake. Smooth, really responsive, great torque, and bloody fast when you want it to be.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

Want over 400whp naturally aspirated? BTDT, dynos of 450whp on high test fuel. Be prepared to spend Motorsports level money.

So Chris, are you saying that the forms of currency listed below would not pay for a big bore, n/a engine on roids?!?!

[TurboKraft]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

What would this produce without the turbo? 350? 400?
I'm really interested in having a motor such as this. I may have to pay for it piecemeal.

On pump gas, conservative tuning, conservative boost -- over 500whp.

Like I said, a 3.2L rebuilt with good used 97mm 3.3L 7:1 P&Cs and twin-plug heads was doing 540-545whp on pump, no issues.
Kelly's 930 ("Taking the EFI Plunge") did 555whp, 3.3L, single plug, flat manifold.

[TurboKraft]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

So Chris, are you saying that the forms of currency listed below would not pay for a big bore, n/a engine on roids?!?!

You sweet talkin' tease