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Question Looking for pics/advices shaving rain gutters

As you know I am within the rebuilt of my beloved 930

One thing I will do is to remove the rain gutters. I searched here and found a lot of pics, but none showed me what I need to know:

How to work the area at the A-pillar bottem end?

Maybe someone with shaved gutters can make some detailed pics of that area, top view and from open door. The part that covers the trim on top of door skin too please

Thanks in advance

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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 02-08-2013, 03:48 AM
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Old pics but I can take some up close today, what do you need to know other than there is more to it than it might seem?
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:47 AM
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Les Paul

Thanks for quick reply

It would be nice to have this area from different agles, as we have get an idea how to cut and smoothen etc...

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:56 AM
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shoptalkforums.com / bodywork
thesamba.com /bodywork

do a search the VW guys do this all the time
Old 02-08-2013, 05:00 AM
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If there are some more things to care, open for advices

It seems like the 3 involded sheets are not welded. Therefore it's recommended to shave-off every second 10cm and weld . The rest in a second row as shown in some threads already.

Any other things to know?
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930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 02-08-2013, 05:03 AM
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I had it done when I had the car painted 7 years ago. They repainted it 3 times because apparently whatever they used to cover the welds was not thick enough. And the last time it took a year but eventually the minuscule seam still shows if you're a foot away. I would have gone back again but between not having the car two years and them ruining an engine that even though they split the cost of a rebuild cost me another 7,000 on what was a recent rebuild anyway. I'll take more pics in good light today. The only advantage is no wind noise at triple digit speed as if that would matter
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Paul View Post
I had it done when I had the car painted 7 years ago. They repainted it 3 times because apparently whatever they used to cover the welds was not thick enough. And the last time it took a year but eventually the minuscule seam still shows if you're a foot away. I would have gone back again but between not having the car two years and them ruining an engine that even though they split the cost of a rebuild cost me another 7,000 on what was a recent rebuild anyway. I'll take more pics in good light today. The only advantage is no wind noise at triple digit speed as if that would matter
Thanks for info. To be honest, I am not looking for advantage, but like the clean look, if there is any, fine
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Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 02-08-2013, 06:17 AM
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There are a few photos on my flickr page (link in signature below) on the 77 project showing details of the rain gutter removal. Sorry there aren't photos of the A pillar detail but with the gutter removed, it is obvious to see how the A pillar/cowl blend together. I will be at the shop where this tub is on Saturday and I'll take some detailed pics for you.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:34 AM
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Last edited by Les Paul; 02-08-2013 at 10:15 AM..
Old 02-08-2013, 10:06 AM
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I'd be greatly interested in some "in progress" pics. After cutting off hte excess material, do you simply stitch weld the remaing butt-joint? Or is another technique needed to avoid the splitting Les Paul describes? Lead in the seams?
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
I'd be greatly interested in some "in progress" pics. After cutting off hte excess material, do you simply stitch weld the remaing butt-joint? Or is another technique needed to avoid the splitting Les Paul describes? Lead in the seams?
Can't remember where I saw it but the metal was gently stitch welded by MIG so there's no distortion.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:10 PM
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I do not make the bodywork by myself, so I can't tell at the moment how he's gonna do it. I will let you know

I suggest too, there is no need for additional material. MIG welding sounds good as well
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:51 PM
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I will post some pics of my car when I get back to my office. Search my name and you can find some posts with pics. My 1991 C2 Turbo. Hope the pics help. T
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:14 PM
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I did mine, it was a real PITA, the welds are heavily contaminated with sealant, the three panels are crimped together and as a result the "outer" two tend to be wedge shaped when you grind them flat. For sure do it in sections, I did mine about 3 inches apart (cut the rail in 3 inch sections, alternated, then went back and cut the rail that was left).

I would not have attempted it had I not been intending on leading the joint. There is just too much going on for me to trust a bondo fill, the lead makes for a permanent repair.

If I was going to do it again, I would trim a little (like 0.5mm or less) proud of the surface, weld with good penetration and then grind it down. It would make the welding easier I think...

D.
Old 02-08-2013, 07:18 PM
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Used to do this in the street rod world and would always advise against it. Like noted there are three sheets of metal coming together and usually seam sealer and lead filling the joint. You are essentially braking the bond between the 3 panels.

It is a difficult job to do correctly and remove all the sealer and lead. You see people all the time trying to mig weld and not understand why it is popping and spitting back at them as they do not realize it isn't bare metal but has a layer of lead.

The issue with it coming back through has noting to do with the bondo but rather how it was welded and grinded down. Mig welds are hard and brittle and guys lay on a bead without proper penetration due to fear of warping, they then grind this weld down and it cracks because the weld and surrounding metal are too thin and fail.

Bondo or plastic fillers are blamed for many things when it is the actual metal work and welds that cause the movement which make the bondo crack.

There is no getting around the warping and inability to remove it due to where the gutters are. There is no access, so you might as well tig or gas weld so you know it won't crack. I would always lead the joints for extra security.

You can get an experienced metal man to remove the sealer and grind then down to a lower profile, fold them over (with a wire inserted) o give a nice low profile gutter that would look almost factory.

Not worth it in my book.
Old 02-08-2013, 10:00 PM
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I know it's not an easy job...

I am a bit unsure about this. On the one hand I would like to have the gutter removed as I really love the clean look, on the other hand it can be a nightmare, at least some of you make me think like this.

Who of you made it and says he would do it again? Or do you all would not do again.

BTW it's not my PITA but the bodyshop's. I only have to pay the bill

Seriously, If there is a nice result to expect, then I'll go that road. If not...

Still open to more meanings and experiences
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:23 AM
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The above few posts are correct regarding the lead and seam sealer.. there is seam sealer that you cannot remove since it is inside the panels... When I did mine I tacked the pieces every few inches then used a torch to burn as much of the seam sealer away... a nasty and probably unhealthy job...

This pic shows the way the panels are crimped together.



Tacks holding the panels together




not a very good pic of the welding finished and ground



I finished my car about 5 years ago... and am now noticing some reflecting through the finish...
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:18 AM
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One thing to note, is that the welded joint done properly is actually a factory modification to make the chassis stiffer. Frere refers to it being done, partly for aerodymics and partly for stiffening, which makes sense that a weld would be more rigid than a crimp.

In terms of lead on the original crimp, I did not find any, all I found was way too much sealant and it needed to be burned out. I was actually concerned about the bad fumes, so I kept a very sharp eye out for any lead runs or pooling and saw none. Not sure if that is peculiar to the later chassis (mine is an '89), but it appeared to have no lead in that segment of the body. Quite different from other locations such as the rear centre panel or the door edge on my previous car ('75) where when I put on the Carrera fenders, there were droplets of lead splashing on the floor during the welding process.

Personally, this is something that Porsche should have done from the factory, it is an excellent upgrade and the car looks far better, even though it is a PITA. Note also I welded in my sunroof and did the rails as part of the same effort, both were a pain but now complete and I believe they will be very durable.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:40 AM
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I have done this and would never do it again. As said prior there are three layers of metal that are insulated with a sealant/caulk between them making it next to impossible to get a solid weld. I welded the seam and then brazed over it which seemed to hold it down.

This was on my own car so time wasn't a factor. I would never do it for a customer of mine unless there was an understanding that it may come back to haunt you and it would be at their expense.

It does look good though.

Dave
Old 02-10-2013, 04:27 PM
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I did mine too. I tired MIG and TIG. Best was the old OA torch. The heat and flame burn everything away first, then come back and lay a bead.

It was messy and 2 years later I had one seam in the rear C pillar start to show through the paint. This was exactly the point where the "stuff" is injected from the wheel well to seal the C pillar.

btw, there is no lead in the system except right at the B pillar joint and where the A pillar ties into the cowl.

The car was noticably quieter at speed without the leading edge by the window frames. I never had any issues with water inclusion.

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Old 02-10-2013, 04:41 PM
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