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Good to see some great progress

Get some video of the rolling road session
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 06-02-2013, 08:05 AM
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Bad LT
 
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Thanks Gav.

I won't be able to get any vid as I'll be at work while it's getting tuned. Damn spark plug leads! Should pick it up Tuesday night all going well.

I'll just be glad when I can drive the old girl again. It feels like forever.
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:45 PM
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I know what you mean, I missed a supercar breakfast meet at Goodwood race circuit this Sunday due to the sump cover being off for the AN-10 fitting being welded on

Hope it all goes well, be good to see if your oil return setup works ok to the tank after you've had some time driving on boost.
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 06-03-2013, 10:30 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
Bad LT
 
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To be honest I am thinking of going down the AN fitting on a stock sump myself. I have a finned alloy sump cover now but it would not be to hard to find a stocker to play with.

I'll drive it for a bit how it is and see what happens.
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Old 06-03-2013, 04:03 PM
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Hi
nice write up, I recently want to turbo my 78 SC engine, which turbo charger do you recommend?
Thanks!
TIEN
Old 06-06-2013, 07:14 AM
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Vinyl_tien, I'd go k27 or gt30r. But I'd also look into 930 induction for ease as well or going efi.
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Last edited by quattrorunner; 06-06-2013 at 07:42 AM.. Reason: Forgot
Old 06-06-2013, 07:41 AM
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Hi quattrorunner
Thanks! I will go EFI tubo my 78 sc~
Old 06-06-2013, 07:58 AM
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Small update.
I've had a couple of hardware problems that are just "stuff happens" but annoying none the less.

After we replaced the leads etc we found out I still had a strange miss. I spent some time working on checking things like coils and running a dignostic check for missed trigger fires and missed injector fires with the Haltech engine managment program on my laptop but nothing was showing up as a problem. Everything was reading as 100% good.
I thought it must be that fact I had still had BP6ES plugs in the car not BPR6ES's so I started to change the plugs over to the new set of R's I had for the job. As is always the way the last plug I did was #4 cylinder. Now all the plugs have been very rich and heavy on fuel as you would expect from a car with a basic start up tune but number 4 looked like it had never fired a shot in anger in its life! Clearly a dud injector on number #4. Very annoying for new injectors but I guess you get that on big jobs. I've asked to be sent another and that should be that.


Gav. As a test I pulled the feed line from the pump to the tank out and had a look at the about of oil the pump was moving and how much vapour was in the tank. Looks to me like the pump has a small amount of cavatation at idle but once it gets some more pressure it builds flow very quickly. This leads to quite a bit of vapour in the tank. My bet is your set up was doing the same thing and hence the amount of oil you had in your catch can.
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Old 06-10-2013, 04:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
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As for what turbo to run it's a big can of worms but yep GT30 is on the money. My car has a TD06. So more like a GT28 than a 30.
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Old 06-10-2013, 04:53 PM
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Hummmmm....wonder if using the scavenger pump is such a good idea then!

I wonder if using the pump to feed back to the sump will cause any issues then?
Like introducing a large amount of vapour into the engine, although I guess it would work up to the crankcase breather and then back to the tank! lol

I like the idea of having the turbo catch tank but that necessitates the use of a scavenger pump.

Maybe I should remove the turbo catch tank and just gravity drain to the sump cover.

Although I drained 6ltr of oil from the sump so wouldn't that force oil back up to the turbo? when the motor is switched off.

I've seen a few 934's draining this way though!

And a few other SC turbo conversions doing this way too.

Any thoughts?

I was thinking the scavenger pump would help stop any oil going back up to the turbo when you switch the motor off.

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Last edited by gavinc69; 06-11-2013 at 11:33 AM..
Old 06-11-2013, 11:31 AM
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Just found this, note sure what scavenger pump they are using but they retuen to the sump with a pump :

Closest AN line is for turbo tank vent/overflow, next AN line is oil return from turbo scavenge pump, transmission AN line for oil cooler is also visible further back as is the -20AN oil in line to the oil pump.

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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 06-11-2013, 01:07 PM
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A good thread on oil return :

Turbo Oil Return

Very last post shows return to chain cover with a scavenger pump!
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Old 06-11-2013, 02:42 PM
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Very intersting.
A one way -6AN check valve would stop any back flow if you feed into the sump from the turbo. I don't like two things about it though. First off is will you get enough fall in the line from the turbo to sump to know that your not going to get a coke build up in the turbo?
Second is the problem of if you run it back to the sump with the current pump will you build pressure in the case. Like you said it well vent to the top of the case but its not at all want.

You could use a VDO/5R inline pump that won't suffer from the same cavitation in the line as the pump we use but I think you will still see some air in the line at idle.

I am thinking I might do something like this...

Turbo>6AN line with a T peice next to tank>One fitting running to high mounted breather>One fitting running to tank>Tank drain to 12v return pump>Main tank.

This should give the main tank a nice solid feed from the pump. Anyhow I'll knock it up and get some photos.
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Last edited by Uncle; 06-11-2013 at 07:56 PM..
Old 06-11-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle View Post
Second is the problem of if you run it back to the sump with the current pump will you build pressure in the case. Like you said it well vent to the top of the case but its not at all want.

You could use a VDO/5R inline pump that won't suffer from the same cavitation in the line as the pump we use but I think you will still see some air in the line at idle.

I am thinking I might do something like this...
Turbo>6AN line with a T peice next to tank>One fitting running to high mounted breather>One fitting running to tank>Tank drain to 12v return pump>Main tank.
.

Uncle,
I have been doing a lot of reading of threads on oil return and don't have practical experience yet. So I have some naive questions:

1) the talk about building pressure in the case when using electric pump to "sump" -- Are we talking about the line running to the engine sump, or back to the oil tank? If it's the engine sump, are you thinking the pressure in the engine crankcase will drive oil backwards? Or are you thinking the pressure will be too great in the case, introducing bubbles in the oil? I'm not clear about the problem.

2) I worry about the pumps getting dry periods where there's not enough oil running through them, which is never good for pumps that use wet gears. I have no idea how much oil runs thru the turbo bearings, but it seems like there would be many times when it would not be very much. When you do your line checks, is there steady oil being pumped out, or is it a trickle?

3) I read on another thread about hydrostatic lock occurring in someone's set-up when the T was placed after the oil catch can (I think it was on a link from 2008, mentioned by someone yesterday). I think the principle was that if the air line shares the same line with the oil line, then the oil flow can block the free flow of air out of the can, so it doesn't breathe. Then there is back pressure on the turbo and seals burst and oil spewed out the exhaust. Would this be a similar concern with the setup you're proposing using a "T"?
Old 06-12-2013, 05:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #74 (permalink)
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If I get time this weekend I will remove the turbo drip tank and run straight from the bottom of the turbo to the sump cover.

Plus points :
No cavitation from a scavenger pump.
No pump to go wrong.
No noise from pump.

Minus points :
No drip tank for turbo.

I have ordered a AN-10 one way check valve that I will put closest to the sump plate. This should stop oil going back towards the turbo from the sump.

The old BAE turbo kit and many other people run a gravity drain to the left valve cover and this works. So seeing as the sump cover is even lover with a greater fall that should only help.
Plus the sump pump will be sucking the oil from the bottom of the sump and therefore also the turbo drain, so giving some additional help to the gravity drain. This is something that doesn't happen when feeding to the valve cover.

I have the TurboKraft KKK oil feed kit, this has a reducer so the KKK is not over oiled and also the oil cut off, so when the engine is turned off the oil supply to the turbo is stopped. This will hopefully reduce the need for a drip tank.

I will try it with all AN-10 fitting and hose, hopefully this should be fine.

If I can get some I will try some clear hose so I can monitor the oil drain and get a video of it.


So I take it the factory cam scavenger pump does not cause cavitation??
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Last edited by gavinc69; 06-12-2013 at 10:50 AM..
Old 06-12-2013, 10:46 AM
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Baloo,

The TurboWerx pump will even run dry with no issues :

Turbowerx Base Model Electric Turbo Oil Scavenge Pump | eBay

Whether the application moves 1 oz of oil a minute or up to 1.75 gallons a minute, 'under-flow' applications are no problem. In fact, the TurboWerx pump may be run dry indefinitely.

These pumps are also supposed to be 'quiet'.
I would like to hear one against the loud pump I've got.


I found there was always enough oil being pushed through to lube the pump.
Its a reasonable trickle.
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 06-12-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavinc69 View Post
If I get time this weekend I will remove the turbo drip tank and run straight from the bottom of the turbo to the sump cover. .....

...The old BAE turbo kit and many other people run a gravity drain to the left valve cover and this works. So seeing as the sump cover is even lover with a greater fall that should only help.
Plus the sump pump will be sucking the oil from the bottom of the sump and therefore also the turbo drain, so giving some additional help to the gravity drain. This is something that doesn't happen when feeding to the valve cover. ....
First of all, I don't really have a clue on the subject!!!

BUT, my first thought with such a setup is that when the turbo drain enters at the very bottom of the engine, below the oil pump, there will constantly be filled up with oil there. Even though the oil pump constantly sucks away oil from the sump, oil runs down inside the engine just as fast. So consider it like entering a gravity water pipe into the bottom of a bath tub with water in it. Isn't it likely that the oil in the drain pipe from the turbo will be quite stationary instead of free gravity flowing? And that the oil is actually pushed forward into the sump by the continuosly pressure above from the oil entering the turbo from the oil feed line? Thus the pressure gets even higher inside the turbo as the oil coming from the oil feed has to push down against the almost stationary oil in the oil return. Thus it's a greater risk of blowing oil past the seals in the turbo.

I could be completely wrong, but this was my first thought. And that's why I like the idea of routing the oil return via the valve cover instead as this high up in the engine it won't be the same conditions as described above.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:55 PM
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Answers in Red


Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo View Post
Uncle,
I have been doing a lot of reading of threads on oil return and don't have practical experience yet. So I have some naive questions:

1) the talk about building pressure in the case when using electric pump to "sump" -- Are we talking about the line running to the engine sump, or back to the oil tank? If it's the engine sump, are you thinking the pressure in the engine crankcase will drive oil backwards? Or are you thinking the pressure will be too great in the case, introducing bubbles in the oil? I'm not clear about the problem.
I am talking about the latter. While I dont think it will add much pressure to the case it will as some and the less you have the better. I understand the problems with aerated oil. They come under the list of DO NOT WANT. As I see it a 934/5 turbo was mounted high enough that it would feed back to the bottom of the motor no problems. In the stock 930 locatoin there is not a hell of a lot of drop.
2) I worry about the pumps getting dry periods where there's not enough oil running through them, which is never good for pumps that use wet gears. I have no idea how much oil runs thru the turbo bearings, but it seems like there would be many times when it would not be very much. When you do your line checks, is there steady oil being pumped out, or is it a trickle?
The pump Gav and I have is a brass geared pump. They can run dry for quite a while and the oil its getting even at idle should be fine.

3) I read on another thread about hydrostatic lock occurring in someone's set-up when the T was placed after the oil catch can (I think it was on a link from 2008, mentioned by someone yesterday). I think the principle was that if the air line shares the same line with the oil line, then the oil flow can block the free flow of air out of the can, so it doesn't breathe. Then there is back pressure on the turbo and seals burst and oil spewed out the exhaust. Would this be a similar concern with the setup you're proposing using a "T"?
Yeah any breather would have to be pre catch can. I started knocking up a test rig last night but ran out of time. I've gone with a line to an (ugly) sump with a breather in the top of it then a feed to the pump. Total size of the sump is bang on 1ltr so it should be big enough to act as place where the oil gets a chance to settle before the pump moves it back up to the main tank. Think of it as an oil surge tank. It will cope with the high flow when the engine is under load and also even out the flow to the pump when under light load. Once I am happy with how it works I'll make up a better looking set up.
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Last edited by Uncle; 06-12-2013 at 04:30 PM..
Old 06-12-2013, 04:28 PM
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Answers in Red
Thanks for the info. Gotta learn from your experiments. Appreciate you forging the way.
Old 06-12-2013, 04:37 PM
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Righty.......Got my sump plate back today, needs a good clean and paint but you get the idea. Also got the AN10 check valve :







I have contacted TurboWerx regarding there range of scavenger pumps.
TurboKraft use and sell there pumps also, so that can only be good.

I explained the issues I was having with my current pump and this is there reply :

Any of our pumps (Base-Model, Exa-Pump, or Exa-pump Mini) will function perfectly in this application as this is the exact purpose they were designed for. Other brands of pumps are relabeled Chinese-made water/fuel-transfer pumps and among their many other problems they run smaller gears at the incorrect RPM for this application. These commodity water pumps create excessive noise, cavitation, have shorter life, etc. Just night and day differences between our pumps and the others. This is also why ours are relatively quiet. However, the way the pump is mounted can dominate how much noise/vibration is transferred to the chassis/frame rail. But unless you bypass the rubber mounts altogether and mount directly to the pump bracket you will not have any noticeable noise.
We are a huge fan of forums - especially the Pelican Parts forum. We are open to special-pricing for group-buys if one is ever organized. Let us know how we can help. Thanks.

Check out this Youtube video for a comparison of the pumps Uncle and I are using and the TurboWerx base model pump :

Turbowerx remote oil pump - YouTube

I have decided to order there base model pump and keep my drip tank and pump back to the sump plate.
I ordered it asap due to it taking aprox 2 weeks to get to me.
Fingers crossed the pump will be hugely quieter and also cause minimal cavitation.
I have seen several other Pelicans using this base model also.
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3

Last edited by gavinc69; 06-13-2013 at 11:00 AM..
Old 06-13-2013, 10:57 AM
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